who has defended the actions of the neonazis on this thread? please use quotes when sourcing

well there is no need for me to quote everything you said -- minimizing the odiousness Nazi's by making comparisons between them and other groups is in my opinion essentially a form of defense. I don't think this is necessarily your intention, James, but my point is why bother trying to do this?
Oppressors are always evil, and the oppressed get a free pass in my book until they are no longer oppressed. The oppressors in the United States have always been white supremacists.

I am not sure you understand the definition or concept of what oppression really is.

Oppression is far more than just hate.

Definition - to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power:

You have to have the power and authority to use that hate to the detriment of those you hate.

The majority of white supremacists who live in the shacks in the country or their double wide trailers who barely have electricity or indoor plumbing, collecting food stamps and welfare lack the power and authority to oppress anyone.

Again, not an excuse or endorsement of any political views.

Just an accurate definition of a word in the English language.

i would argue that most white supremacists aren't poor, and don't even know that they are white supremacists....they are just going along with the flow. We are all oppressors if we rake in the benefits and don't fight the system, even if we are friendly to minorities.
power to all the people.

@ishirkmywork

i have not minimized the crimes of the neonazis. it's quite telling that you won't quote me, because all this is, is you interpreting what i say to mean something far different from what i actually have said.

neonazis are bad.

violence against speech is bad.

identity politics is bad.


can we just agree on those 3 points?

sure.

You can argue the sky is yellow and the sun is blue also.

@ishrikmywork

it's funny, because most areas where black people are poorest, where black people have the highest poverty rates, where black people have the lowest income mobility, and the high income inequality with other regards to other citizens... are all in democrat controlled cities, that have been controlled by democrats for decades

but... democrats aren't racist... right?

and let's not forget the cultural aspect. how the black single motherhood rate jumped from 20% to 70% from the civil rights era to today. is that "white oppression?"

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/179310/larry-elder-confronts-race-and-fatherhood-crisis-frontpagemagcom

even if you factor in massively inflated economic discrimination against blacks, and you assume that every arrested black male were innocent and a victim of racism, you STILL don't see the demographic shift that would make a 70% single motherhood rate, the maximum the most inflated numbers could give you would be closer to 40-45%.

but it's all white oppression's fault. no, liberal policy economically crippling the black community played a massive hand in this.

As of 1965, the number of Americans living below the official poverty line had been declining continuously since the beginning of the decade and was only about half of what it had been fifteen years earlier. Between 1950 and 1965, the proportion of people whose earnings put them below the poverty level, had decreased by more than 30%. The black poverty rate in particular had been cut nearly in half between 1940 and 1960. And in various skilled trades during the period of 1936-59, the incomes of blacks relative to those of whites had more than doubled.

From 1965 to 1969, government-provided benefits increased by a factor of 8, and by 1974 such benefits were an astounding 20 times higher than they had been in 1965. Also as of 1974, federal spending on social-welfare programs amounted to 16% of America’s Gross National Product, a far cry from the 8% figure of 1960. By 1977 the number of people receiving public assistance had more than doubled since 1960.

it was only after this trend that we've seen the massive poverty increases compared to white families in the black community.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/262726/how-liberal-welfare-state-destroyed-black-america-john-perazzo



you have to explain why in the massively racist pre-civil rights era black poverty was decreasing and the population was prospering economically. yes their was widespread social racism and this was AWFUL... but this didn't affect their economic health. why is this?

maybe, just maybe, the "system" of America is freedom. the more economic freedom you have, the better you will do.

because the 1960s marked a massive switch: social freedom for the black population, but a massive institution of welfare programs.


no social freedom, economic independence: prosperity

social freedom, economic dependance: poverty

----------------------------------------------
now just so Ogion or someone else won't misquote me SOCIAL FREEDOM IS GOOD, AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT WAS GOOD
----------------------------------------------

so maybe, just maybe, the rise of social racism TODAY, is not fully connected with all of the problems black americans are facing. maybe it's bad economic policy.

Neo Nazis in Charlottesville may be poor losers who fesitishize other losers (Nazis and Confederates). Or they may be well off. Who cares?

They openly advocate policies of oppression and discrimination. It is pretty much why they exist.

@JK

entirely correct. although i do have to say that when racists get into government, things get more complicated

I thought this was going to be about how everyone is scared to play live games...

Yep,

Got the "black on black"violence meme. Got the "black people get shot because they commit more crimes" from the WSJ no less. All the standards. Oh, and "identity politics is bad" I think you forgot "we're post racial now" And no black deaths in Baltimore? I guess Freddy Gray's mom will be glad to hear that. I'm sure he's walking in the door any day now. Oh, wait, he's six feet underground. Oops

Meanwhile, the statistics are ironclad that black people are charged for the same offense more often and convicted more often than white people. for example, the use of drugs is pretty much the same between them in epidemiological research, but the incidence of imprisonment for non-violent drug offenders is many times higher for black people. Black men are TWENTY THREE TIMES more likely to be shot by cops ("correcting" for the number of encounters is specious as hell, given that cops stop black men for being black men all the time, which means that racist cops drive up encounter stats.) Oh, and then there are the analyses of body cams which show that across the board black men are treated with greater hostility and disrespect than white people. That's not going to show up in body counts, but it sure as hell goes to why people are pissed as hell.

Sorry if they don't protest in a manner that meets your delicate standards of sensibility, James. Read that Letter from a Birmingham Jail again, especially the part about white moderates.

Go back and look at peterwiggin's graphic on white supremacy, and you'll see these all appear there.

Actually, no identity politics is absolutely critical where systemically racist society insists on there being no problem (sort of like when you said gay and trans people are just whining. Tell that to all the trans kids murdered every year how whiney they are.)

And here, where its a bunch of white supremacists who came armed and dangerous, and attacked counter protestors and killed one, THAT is the only issue that should be raised. You have pretty much two incidents of left wing terrorism, as compared to dozens and dozens of white right wing terrorism. White terrorist kill a lot more Americans in the US than Islamic ones.

So, yeah, your pearl clutching responses are straight out of Deflection 101 class.

Wow, you really are running through the whole racists' handbook.

Maybe predominantly black cities are Democratic because Republicans are fucking racist assholes much of the time? What a crock you're spouting.

We have massive income inequality because of a whole series of systemic discrimination, such as redlining, charging higher interest rates to black people with the same credit scores, denying interviews to identical applicants with identifiably black sounding names, disproportionate criminal enforcement, etc. that has massive impacts on the black community, and you sure as hell are never going to see conservatives address ANY of those well documented facts.

Frankly, the more I hear from James the worse he reveals himself to be.

Too bad for your hoakey economic theory that there isn't a damn shred of evidence to support it. your economic "freedom" mostly is the freedom of corporations to fuck people over. In fact, standards of living for a given GDP for median people are vastly higher in social democracies. Vastly. The American system is fantastic for creating a very small number of very rich people and massive income inequality. it's piss poor at creating broad based prosperity. Add in the systemic racism and yeah, people of color are going to get it in the neck.

@Ogion

"Yep,

Got the "black on black"violence meme. Got the "black people get shot because they commit more crimes" from the WSJ no less. All the standards. Oh, and "identity politics is bad" I think you forgot "we're post racial now" And no black deaths in Baltimore? I guess Freddy Gray's mom will be glad to hear that. I'm sure he's walking in the door any day now. Oh, wait, he's six feet underground. Oops"

and the cops got prosecuted for the freddy gray case... no there action was not good but the legal system came through. furthermore, you're kind of acting dismissive of my evidence which is... expected.


"Meanwhile, the statistics are ironclad that black people are charged for the same offense more often and convicted more often than white people."

yes, but it's also true that for accounts of crime reported (by fellow citizens) that black crime arrests follow directly in tandem with black crime reports. this means the police aren't adding on an extra level of bias, but rather that on average the black community has a crime problem.



"for example, the use of drugs is pretty much the same between them in epidemiological research, but the incidence of imprisonment for non-violent drug offenders is many times higher for black people."

one big reason for this is sentencing for crack cocaine and how it is much more heavily sentenced than regular crack: but this program was advocated for by black community leaders in the 1980s to crack down on drugs moving into the neighborhoods, and crack cocaine's easy distribution made it a prime target.

another is that there is a strict difference in the drug usage itself, and the actual arrests. firstly there is heavier drug policing in urban areas and along the borders, which means the largest demographics of drug users in those areas are going to be found out more and more often: hispanics and blacks specifically, when compared to the entirety of the population of each group. furthermore, the connection to gang violence has also caused drug crime related spikes, many of which are plead down to simply possession charges in accordance with deals made. these aren't represented in the overall statistics.

furthermore, the studies that run these also look for other correlations, and we find a much strong correlation between arrest rates, and economic class. the rich rarely ever get actually convicted and serve time for drugs crimes, and since there is an underlying economic disparity in this country: whites come out better.

if you want to argue economic discrimination: do that. but the idea that black criminals are innocent meek victims in all of this is entirely untrue.



"Black men are TWENTY THREE TIMES more likely to be shot by cops ("correcting" for the number of encounters is specious as hell, given that cops stop black men for being black men all the time, which means that racist cops drive up encounter stats.)"

more likely than WHOM? as far as lethal shootings, this has been debunked:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/13/why-a-massive-new-study-on-police-shootings-of-whites-and-blacks-is-so-controversial/?utm_term=.6a5a3e969526

unless... the washington post is now a right wing source? i'd like to see you use THAT tactic.

furthermore, you didn't read the entirety of the wsj article i posted.

as for police homicide: 12 percent of white and Hispanic homicide deaths were due to police officers, while only four percent of black homicide deaths were the result of police officers.

also, it addresses they fact that WHITE cops are less likely to shoot blacks than hispanic or black cops, in fact black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun at a crime scene.

this is basic demographic logic. most heavily black neighborhoods, will have a heavily black police force. this is basic geographic employment economics.

also, blacks are more likely to kill cops, than be killed by cops

this is according to FBI data, which also found that 40 percent of cop killers are black. a police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myths-of-black-lives-matter-1455235686



"Oh, and then there are the analyses of body cams which show that across the board black men are treated with greater hostility and disrespect than white people. That's not going to show up in body counts, but it sure as hell goes to why people are pissed as hell."

no source, and i can't find a single article verifying this. come on Ogion, this is a poor argument tactic.



"Sorry if they don't protest in a manner that meets your delicate standards of sensibility, James."

I don't like it when they break into other black people's businesses, and burn black people's cars... in reaction to police brutality. you're so ideological screwed up here Ogion


"Read that Letter from a Birmingham Jail again, especially the part about white moderates."

The thing is, MLK Jr. detested the violence in the civil rights movement. he was AT ODDS WITH Malcolm X for MANY years. i don't want violent responses to this stuff, and neither did he. you need to cut this shit Ogion, King would not have appreciated these riots.


"Go back and look at peterwiggin's graphic on white supremacy, and you'll see these all appear there.

Actually, no identity politics is absolutely critical where systemically racist society insists on there being no problem (sort of like when you said gay and trans people are just whining. Tell that to all the trans kids murdered every year how whiney they are.)"

LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE
OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE

i have never said that gay and trans people are just whining. this is an absolute lie. I will not let you constantly defame me like this. you should be embarrassed for posting such nonsense. people can check for themselves EVERYONE PLEASE DO!

OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE OGION LIE



"And here, where its a bunch of white supremacists who came armed and dangerous, and attacked counter protestors and killed one, THAT is the only issue that should be raised. You have pretty much two incidents of left wing terrorism, as compared to dozens and dozens of white right wing terrorism. White terrorist kill a lot more Americans in the US than Islamic ones."

only 2 incidents of left wing terrorism? now we're simply being anti-facts. yes right wing terrorism is more prevalent in this country simple FBI data shows us that, but political violent rhetoric is bipartisan. leftist riots have cost us more property damage, and burnt down more black businesses than white supremacists (for either activity) have done in the last 10 years, compared to the last 2 years combined.

in any case, you take the white supremacists and qualify the,:

"armed and dangerous"

and i simply add an addendum to the counter protestors: "who were also armed and dangerous" and you get upset.

stop being a snowflake, both of those were true. yes the right took it too far by claiming a life, but you need to stop ignoring the wrongs in your own camp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDGLBI_ZNW4

there's more raw footage, but to simply say "counter protestors" and leave that analysis so undeveloped, while deeply delving into white supremacism is intellectually dishonest. antifa has assaulted MANY people in the past and i will NOT EVER pass over their atrocities simply because the other side is worse.

i don't ignore the soviet union's horror just because the nazis were worst. sorry, not doing it.


"So, yeah, your pearl clutching responses are straight out of Deflection 101 class."

this comment had zero substance... so. yeah. good job being consistent?



"Wow, you really are running through the whole racists' handbook.

Maybe predominantly black cities are Democratic because Republicans are fucking racist assholes much of the time? What a crock you're spouting."

wow. totally ignore my point. the highest income inequality, the lower income mobility, and the highest poverty for the black community are in democrat controlled cities.

if you hate reality just come out and say it man.



"We have massive income inequality because of a whole series of systemic discrimination, such as redlining, charging higher interest rates to black people with the same credit scores, denying interviews to identical applicants with identifiably black sounding names, disproportionate criminal enforcement, etc. that has massive impacts on the black community, and you sure as hell are never going to see conservatives address ANY of those well documented facts."

and for some reason it's worse in... democrat controlled cities. hmmmmm.....




"Too bad for your hoakey economic theory that there isn't a damn shred of evidence to support it."

except for all of my sources, and the basic failure of Keynesian economics in destroying capital reserves that create jobs.

but yeah, NO evidence.

speaking of which, you haven't given me ONE source to work with. how shitty is THAT?



"your economic "freedom" mostly is the freedom of corporations to fuck people over."

and if corporations fuck us over with high prices, then we buy from smaller vendors. what? regulation has destroyed the classical small business model? it's almost like that's not economic freedom at all!

it's almost like... you're strawmanning everything i say... huh.



"In fact, standards of living for a given GDP for median people are vastly higher in social democracies. Vastly."

you. are. fake news.

https://mises.org/blog/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-would-be-among-poorest-states

check the very first graph (sorry to disprove your reality)

furthermore, you're favorite countries, norway, sweden and denmark... their GDP is dropping and their countries are moving to more free market systems

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=sweden+gdp&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

I HAVE FACTS AND SOURCES. YOU ARE A PRECIOUS LITTLE SNOWFLAKE
tee hee


"The American system is fantastic for creating a very small number of very rich people and massive income inequality."

which is why we need more freeeeedom. not less.


"it's piss poor at creating broad based prosperity."

in 2007 we were tied for #1 as the most prosperous country. then after Obama's term...

https://qz.com/292417/how-the-us-stacks-up-to-the-worlds-most-prosperous-country/



"Add in the systemic racism and yeah, people of color are going to get it in the neck."

once again, i agree that racism is bad, but given that you haven't provided a SINGLE source to back up your argument, it is kind of hard to believe you.






CONVERSATION LAST YEAR:

https://puu.sh/xajl7/1e850994ec.png

https://puu.sh/xajmd/dff2a693f6.png

https://puu.sh/xajnm/7b217ed977.png

HUH. you STILL don't provide sources.



oh well. snowflakes gonna flake

i love keeping records of our conversations. it makes it so easy to expose your basic lack of intellectual standards to everyone

but still, i have to admit:

you're consistent

"Maybe predominantly black cities are Democratic"

You took a qualifier out of his statement.

And he's not Republican either lmao

And many "social democracies" tend to have similar economic freedom rankings to the US, which is always a fun statistic to drop into debates.

actually sweden in many ways makes it EASIER to start businesses than in the US.

the difference is this: we regulate business and let people do as they please, while they free business but regulate individual choices. that's why debates on what economic "liberalism" get so muddied up, because there are different standards across the world for what that means

i'm for freedom across the board though

@Kansas botyd. Only one side showed up with shields, body armor, clubs and automatic weapons. Oh, but both sides were looking for a fight.

Bullshit

What qualifier did I miss?

And yes, that's a very cool stat. Didn't know that. That doesn't happen every day thanks


And by the way. This is the shit that some people think protesting is exactly like advocating genocide

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/14/stop-and-frisk-policing-black-men-torture-sexual-harassment-paul-butler

Get treated like that every damn day and after a while you'd want to break windows too

@Ogion

the antifa had clubs, pepper spray, bats, body armor, and yes, some did in fact have guns.

sorry to burst that bubble.

and yeah, stop and frisk profiling should be stopped. that i actually agree with, and is something that doesn't really seem to be a valid purpose for taxpayer dollars to be spent on. i'm glad we can agree on this.

but just for clarification, i would want to break windows too, but i wouldn't break the windows of a neighbor's business. that reaction would be extraordinarily immature

Can everyone agree Trump is afraid of the press? Pussy-grabber-in-chief walked out when initially asked to respond to white nationalists or to denounce their support?

PGIC thought first statement was fine. Didn't want to appear like he made a mistake.

Seriously, fuck this guy.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/14/trump_reportedly_thought_first_charlottesville_statement_was_fine_resisted.html

And lest we have much doubt, Trump apparently retweeted a tweet claiming he is a fascist. The mask slips?

yrah, the "both sides do it" is a bit of a tell. Because camping in a park is totally equivalent to saying murdering 12 million people is a good thing.

Got links? There were some armed people, who were credited with protecting clergy, but in every photo I've seen, the folks in helmets, shields and clubs are the neonazis, and the protestors have signs. If you have evidence, now is the time to present it.

Also, it was the neonazi organizers who called on attendees to bring weapons. i'd like to see copies of similar calls from the antifa, if such exist

Yep, look how violent all those clergy are!
https://twitter.com/JimKilbane/status/896853158428909568/photo/1

So glad the President condemned the violent alt-left today: blm/antifa and I am also glad he repeated his condemnation of the alt-right for a third time today.

and... enter the black bloc.

Finally found some reporting from, you know, a reporter who was there
https://www.buzzfeed.com/blakemontgomery/heres-what-really-happened-in-charlottesville?utm_term=.hxLwbxARd#.kmX5vrXK9

And yeah, not surprisingly there were "leftist" black bloc thugs there, as is so often the case. (Notice I already denounced these bastards above and pointed out how BLM folks will tackle them and rip off their masks when they see them.

These assholes aren't so much leftists and anarchist and hooligans who love to fight when there's an excuse to. Those asswipes deserve whatever abuse they get.

However, as for the regular protestors, clergy, BLM, etc. they didn't bring a ton of weapons, and mostly got attacked for being there. And as one organizer put is "“No one on our side is calling for vast swaths of the public to be put to death,”

Upon reflection also, I find it interesting that when there is a terrorist group with a genocidal mission that inspires lone wolf attacks, we send in the air force to bomb them, their families if they're Arabs. But if they're white, then we defend their rights. Go figure. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is between Anwar Al Awlaki and Richard Spencer other than that.