I don't belong to a church and what I was discussing was religion as a whole.

"According to his own admission, he was not a monk out of conviction, but because he needed a stable income and this was the best chance to get it. "

So the church provided his income while he was doing his research? Still doesn't sound like it's mutually exclusive.

But if you insist on trying to debunk every scientist as being not really a Christian, then let's at least go in order. Would you rather start with the most recent or the most ancient?

hehehe now your starting to make me laugh....ATTACK...ATTACK.....so droll.

I think, if the word gets out, I may be dragged in front of the House unsecular activities committee.....lord no!

"House unsecular activities committee."

If only.

you would make a good Joe McCarthy.

Taking a closer look at the Mendel admission, There is nothing there that actually says he didn't believe in God. Can you give a clearer quote from him. It may be that he didn't have any particular conviction that he should be a monk. I share that lack of conviction but I still believe in God. So far I have found nothing that says he didn't believe in God, but admittedly I haven't looked very hard since that's your job. All I've seen indicates that he took his religious duties seriously.

and neither ECUSA nor ACNA. Why would that matter anyway?

Still though it isn't about the piety of Gregor Mendel, it's more about why I can take my son to Sunday school on Sunday and Science Club on Tuesday without hte slightest concern that there is a conflict. Mendel is one of many Christians throughout the ages that has made significant scientific discoveries. The mere fact that people have been noted scientists and also devout Christians is enough to back me up in the original assessment that Science and religion are not inherently at odds. There are factions within Christianity and factions outside of Christianity that would like it to be so, but that doesn't make it so. THe majority of Christians I deal with (and that is a substantial number in a conservative area) communicate no animosity at all toward science. In fact the sentiment is quite the opposite.

What an enlightening debate we were having last night (GMT) and then along came the sociopath who sees the world in the same mode as the Saturday morning cinema of my childhood. All the good cowboys wore white hats, while all the villains wore black. They were so much simpler days and I sometimes get sentimental about them, but then I read that arsehole Putin's diatribes and I change my mind.

The "arsehole" has a great talent for pulling the snails out of their shells.

A forum such as this can get real overwhelming. And I suppose the "layout" (I don't know the term) of this Forum is of the Bronze Age of Internet, not very suitable to the use we ('re trying to make) of it here.

There is too much to answer to in here now, so... some kind of a pick...

I thank CloisterB for his pertinent contribution. He put it as a disagreement with me, but it seems to me that he is not disagreeing with my intent, on the contrary, he disagrees with Christianism adopting metaphysics, which is exactly what I hold against it too.

The word is certainly not lacking in words of wisdom.
Perhaps I may let my case rest in the hands of Greysoni with a benign bow to our gracious host Mujus. Not much I would, upon invitation, change in their posts.
And Putin is precious. Take care of each other - Putin and Greysoni.
Again: We do not lack words of wisdom. Bold hearts I find is a more rare and precious quality.

Typo: the word - the world

er....not sure how to take your post Sylence....this thread was going so well, a decent discussion with people with varying views until Putin showed up in attack mode.....He doesn't want to discuss so much as destroy....not sure what he gets out of it.

In response to Anglican's post "My suspicion is that it's in the best interest of atheists to characterize us as primitive, backward, superstitious, science hating trogs, but as I said earlier. The more I see it the less it adds up with my personal experience on the subject. I simply don't see Newton, Pastuer, Mendel, Dobzhansky, and the many other excellent scientists who were also Christians as anything like that." First, extremely well put. Second--Let's admit that there are those of our faith who discount science (perhaps because they are not well versed in it and because it does not respect the sacred cows of any religion, or perhaps because they do not understand that many parts of the Bible are true in a symbolic sense rather than a literal one). Third--I want to distance myself from the debate over whether "religion is good" or "religion is bad" because religion as a system can sometimes become just another substitute for a relationship with God--just another idol. Comments?

Today's Bible reading is John Chapter 13,
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=13&v=1&t=NLTJhn 13:34
It begins like this: "Before the Passover celebration, Jesus knew that his hour had come to leave this world and return to his Father. He had loved his disciples during his ministry on earth, and now he loved them to the very end."
Then later in the chapter, verse 34, Jesus says, "So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=13&v=1&t=NLTJhn 13:34

Correction: The link to Ch. 13 is
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=13&v=1&t=NLT
My apologies.

This is my religion, Church of England, absolutely the coolest religion going. Henry VIII had a great idea to sack the Pope, since we freed ourselves from the Roman Catholic guilt we've never looked back.
Bored of other religions that make you pay, make you feel guilty and attend church, then why not try 'Church of England', try it, I think you'll like it !!

http://www.myspace.com/video/calatar/eddie-izzard-church-of-england/1254120

Yes, naturally, I am to blame for lowering the discourse. Before I came into this "debate" (rather internal conversation between science hating bible thumpers) - we had commentary such as:

"The mental gymnastics required to make sense of this stuff is ridiculous"

"Fuck religious bampots"

"Laugh at religion" (followed by links to the Brick Testament)"

"I want answers here, who did God tell about the Garden of Eden and if God was a Jew, why did he let the Holocaust happen? If Jesus wasn't white, what colour was God?"

"@ Mujus: Hey dickhead, you mind if we leave some space for Diplomacy related threads?"
"Yo mama so old, God said "let there be light" and the bitch flipped the switch."

and then Fulham's insinuations that scientists all cook the books for their funding.

Tell me, pray tell, how I single handedly ruined this thread and disrupted your lovely conversations?

I stand by my original comment.

"There is nothing there that actually says he didn't believe in God."

I never made such a claim. I said he joined the monastery not out of some desire to be a monk but because it provided a stable income. In Hugo Iltis's "The Life of Mendel", Mendel says that he was felt compelled to join the monastery to spare himself anxiety about a means of livelihood (p 42).

The bible is just a bunch of rubbish

Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Professor : Is GOD good ?
Student : Sure.
Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?
Student : Yes.
Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t.How is this GOD good then? Hmm?
(Student was silent.)
Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good? Student : Yes.
Professor: Is satan good ?
Student : No.
Professor: Where does satan come from ?
Student : From … GOD …
Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student : Yes.
Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything.Correct? Student : Yes.
Professor: So who created evil ?
(Student did not answer.)
Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor: So, who created them ?
(Student had no answer.)
Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?
Student : No, sir.
Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?
Student : No , sir.
Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD?Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student : Yes.
Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol,Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Professor: Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Professor: Yes.
Student : No, sir. There isn’t.
(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, megaheat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anythingcalled cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but wecan’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)
Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness? Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?
Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something.You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness,isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able tomake darkness darker, wouldn’t you?
Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?
Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue thereis life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir,Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism,but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death asthe opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot existas a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me,Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey? Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes,of course, I do. Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)
Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at workand cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are younot teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class was in uproar.)
Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?
(The class broke out into laughter. )
Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain,felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol,Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.) Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH.That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

That's a fine piece, Baby. Where'd you find it? Wrote it yourself?

That's stupid. We know humans have brains, due to numerous examples of people cutting open each others heads. And if you were to cut open the professors head, you would find a brain.

Greysoni said "er....not sure how to take your post Sylence....this thread was going so well, a decent discussion with people with varying views until Putin showed up in attack mode.....He doesn't want to discuss so much as destroy....not sure what he gets out of it."

haha... pimping seems to be a vocation of mine... With the risk that you will both hate me... and the rest of the congregation think me crazy...

Well, this is Mujus thread... I see he has a fine poem from W Blake on his profile - an old hero of mine - and Blake wrote "The marriage of heaven and hell".
This reinforces me, gives me courage to declare my arduous desire: I want to officiate your marriage.
Putin33 and Greysoni! I will see you two married and may you have offspring. Her name shalt be Harmoneia and you shall send her to me, and we will have a ball.

I don't care about one of you being "heaven" and the other "hell", but I see intrinsic qualities in the both of you that I won't like to see being wasted in your separate courses.

"Thread was going so well" and "Decent discussion"? Thou wast selected for dirtier deeds, my Son! And Putin... yeah, what is he getting out of his furious morality? Time to settle down, Putin, and put your force to a nobler use.

You two need each other guys!

lol......

my good laugh for today...most indebted

I am glad you take it that way, Greysoni :D


<whisper> Now, try to be a little sweet with Putin, now will ya, eh?

well now your going to far....:) I may need to pull a Thomas More and take refuge in silence