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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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damian (675 D)
27 Jun 11 UTC
150cc Live Diplomacy Club
Well given that the original thread slid into the depth I figured I'd start a new thread, and try and give a little life back to what I think was a promising idea: Essentially a high class live game club

194 replies
Open
Sargmacher (0 DX)
11 Aug 11 UTC
Santa's Gunboat Thread.
A seperate thread to discuss the issues surrounding Santa's complaints with the Gunboat Tournament. Please use this thread to let the original Summer Gunboat News thread be used for its purpose.
5 replies
Open
Jelle (103 D)
11 Aug 11 UTC
Rules question: Cutting support if dislodged?
What will happen when orders below are given? Will there be stand-off in Budapest?
12 replies
Open
Indybroughton (3407 D(G))
10 Aug 11 UTC
Why respond to idiots and haters?
Why attempt rational discourse with someone who behaves wildly inappropriately on threads?
14 replies
Open
binkman (416 D)
11 Aug 11 UTC
Movement rules question
Will a fleet in SKA block an army from moving DEN to SWE? What if the fleet is in SKA and moves into SKA on the same turn the army attempts to move DEN to SWE?
3 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
07 Aug 11 UTC
Medical advice
Stepped on a sea urchin, middle toe of left foot hurts badly to bend. Can't tell if spine inserted near joint. Seek medical attention?
32 replies
Open
Darwyn (1601 D)
29 Jul 11 UTC
Bush explains slow reaction to September 11 attacks
"So I made the decision not to jump up immediately and leave the classroom. I didn't want to rattle the kids. I wanted to project a sense of calm"

Bullshit or Legit?
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Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
well, I appreciate it fiedler.
This is impossible to know...

It is also impossible to know that he was safe outside. They made a judgement that he was safer inside than outside.

"The funny thing is, Darwyns theory is probably wrong, but he still looks golden next to some of the obnoxious and rude assholes arguing against him."

Coming from a guy who has a history of agreeing with Darwyn to troll others, I dont really care what you think, meanwhile you also fuck sheep, sending your credibility even lower
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
"It is also impossible to know that he was safe outside."

The Presidents whereabouts were known ahead of time.
He was a potential target.
Staying invites attack.
Make his whereabouts unknown and he ceases to be a potential target.

It's easy. And the Secret Service already knew he wasn't a target. That is impossible.
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
-1 Fiedler

We've tried being polite early on. We tried showing him how a security expert (even a former one like myself) wouldknow that having thew President contained within a small school building hundreds of miles from Washington DC was safer than putting him on the road back to Airforce One. But he is so deluded as to think no one is going to know where the President's plane landed (it's a big fucking 747 painted with the Seal of the President of the United States, duh!) and that the terrorists could manage to hit a very small public elementary school (one story, nowhere near as big as the Pentagon or the White House and not even as large as the first floor of one of the WTC towers) with a hijacked jet liner and that taking a course of action to keep the President indoors and away from potential snipers or other would be assassins, thereby keeping him as safe as possible is the same thing as knowing he wasn't a target. He is delusional.

Oh, and I should point out that Air Forceone would be a seriously big ass target and easier to hit on the ground than the elementary school. They park Airforce One on a distant tarmac away from terminal view when he flies into an airport. That tarmac is *always* a big flat open space which would make it much easier (amnd well marked) target to hit with another aircraft than an elementary school (unmarked from the sky) in the middle of a populated area.

BTW, look at the attache dlink from Google Maps and you'll see that the elementary school is a nice flat school with no possible way for a single jetliner to crash into it and guaranteeing doing anything more than starting a fire. It is rather sprawled out and, unless you knew the President's exact location within and could control the jet to the same level as a commercial airline pilot landing, you'd have slim to no chance of hitting the President in it.

And considering that Google Maps wasn't around 10 years ago to the degree of detail and satellite imagery it is today (the web was still in it's infancy in many ways in 2001), the terrorists wouldn't even have had access o this level of information.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=booker+elementary+school+sarasota+fl&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1280&bih=643&wrapid=tlif131230015371310&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
@Darwyn - How does taking him fro a known location in a known vehicle convoy to a known aircraft in an open tarmac somehow make his wherabouts unknown? You insist on this "unknown" but don't explain how to make him disappear. The Secret Service (I refuse to call them SS as that was Hitler's organization) are good, but they aren't David Copperfield.
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
You assume FAR too many things Draugnar.

America is under attack. You cannot assume anything.
"The Presidents whereabouts were known ahead of time.
He was a potential target.
Staying invites attack.
Make his whereabouts unknown and he ceases to be a potential target."

And leave too soon and the snipers along the route take the pres out. How do you make his whereabouts unknown? Normal Darwyn bullshit, being vague, no thinking past easy answers. You continue to think the SS can snap its fingers and put bush in the whitehouse bunker. They need to take him in transit where they viewed him as more vulnerable. 4th time ive said it, and yes I know I will not get an answer. I quit, its useless, you refuse to engage and only say the same things over and over. At least Im gla everyone (including fiedler) sees that you are a quack

"It's easy. And the Secret Service already knew he wasn't a target. That is impossible. "

You are right, it is impossible the Secret service already knew he was a target. What idiot makes a conspiracy and informs a whole retinue of secret service, their higher ups, and their higher ups. Quite a conspiracy when half of washington knows about it.
"You assume FAR too many things Draugnar.

America is under attack. You cannot assume anything. "

Yet you feel it safe to assume the president will be more safe in transit without backup. Why can you assume and we cant? You assume the SS on the ground couldnt know that the school was safe, when they easily could due to their training. You assume that the SS wasn't holding tight to the president as they made plans for his safe extraction. Who makes these rules darwyn why can you assume everything and we can assume nothing.
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
@ Darwyn: "America is under attack. You cannot assume anything."

AAARGH! For goodness sake! What about all the assumptions YOU are making?
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
An excerpt from Laura Bush's biography about that horrific day... Read it and you will see that the Secret Service took action as soon as the Pentagon was hit. They did not know what was going on but decided discretion was the better part of valor and dealing with the unkown is easier when you reduce the variables involved.

---------------------------Begin excerpt------------------------------


As we walked out of the briefing room, the cell phone of my advance man, John Meyers, rang. A friend told him that CNN was reporting that an airplane had crashed into the Pentagon. Within minutes, the order would be given to evacuate the White House and the Capitol.

I walked back to Senator Kennedy’s office and then began moving quickly toward the stairs, to reach my car to return to the White House. Suddenly, the lead Secret Service agent turned to me and my staff and said that we needed to head to the basement immediately. We took off at a run; Judd Gregg suggested his private office, which was in the lower level and was an interior room. The Secret Service then told John that they were waiting for an Emergency Response Team to reach the Capitol. The team would take me, but my staff would be left behind. Overhearing the conversation, I turned back and said, “No, everyone is coming.” We entered Judd’s office, where I tried to call Barbara and Jenna, and Judd tried to call his daughter, who was in New York. Then we sat and talked quietly about our families and our worries for them, and the overwhelming shock we both felt.


More from TODAY.com Her kids are with woman who killed her own children
In 1991, Kristine Cushing killed the two daughters she had with John Cushing. After being released from a mental institution, she remarried John — and today they live with John’s two sons by his second wife, Trisha Conlon, who fears for their safety.

.J.Lo speaks out on divorce: ‘I believe in love’
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..Sometime after 10:00 a.m., when the entire Capitol was being emptied, when White House staffers had fled barefoot and sobbing through the heavy iron gates with Secret Service agents shouting at them to “Run, run!” my agents collected me. They now included an additional Secret Service detail and an Emergency Response Team, dressed in black tactical clothing like a SWAT force and moving with guns drawn. As we raced through the dim hallways of the Russell Building, past panicked staffers emptying from their offices, the ERT team shouted “GET BACK” and covered my every move with their guns. We reached the underground entrance; the doors on the motorcade slammed shut, and we sped off. The Secret Service had decided to take me temporarily to their headquarters, located in a nondescript federal office building a few blocks from the White House. Following the Oklahoma City bombing, their offices had been reinforced to survive a large-scale blast. Outside our convoy windows, the city streets were clogged with people evacuating their workplaces and trying to reach their own homes.

By the time I had reached my motorcade, Flight 93 had crashed in a Pennsylvania field and the west side of the Pentagon had begun to collapse. Judd Gregg walked alone to the underground Senate parking garage and retrieved his car, the last one left there. He pulled out of the garage and headed home, across the Fourteenth Street Bridge and past the Pentagon, thick with smoke and flame.

In the intervening years, Judd and I, and many others, were left to contemplate what if Flight 93 had not been forced down by its passengers into an empty field; what if, shortly after 10:00 a.m., it had reached the Capitol Dome?

Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
"Yet you feel it safe to assume the president will be more safe in transit without backup."

I've assumed nothing. If the President is a target, he's a target. For as long as he stays in his previously announced location, he continues to be a target.

Move and he cannot be a target.
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
"What about all the assumptions YOU are making? "

Point out one.
I believe I just pointed out 3. How about some more? NORAD had not already restricted airspace around the president, The SS didnt send out a fake convoy to make it seem like the president was elsewhere, The SS wasn't merely waiting for air, police assets to arrive to escort the president. Now I have 6 assumptions you are making, all under the monster assumption, that the school was not more safe than transit.
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
@All - Sorry for the extra little stuff. The copy and paste from the web excerpt grabbed some adds in there.

@Darwyn - Ever heard of a moving target? N'est-ce pas. A predictable moving target outside (like a Presidential caravan or Airforce One) is easier to hit than a small stationary target (the President) inside a much larger target (the school) obstructing the view of the smaller target. K?
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
"dealing with the unkown is easier when you reduce the variables involved"

This is exactly my point! There are far too many variables to account for...is the pres a target? will he be attacked? where will he be attacked? From where will it come?

Move. problem solved.
"Move. problem solved. "

And there are no variables when in transit? Are you insane? All the variables above remain, and now you have "What are in those trees," "what happens on that highwa on ramp" "did I just see that curtain flutter," Is that guy on the roof just watching or is he reporting to someone" you obviously think there are more variables hunkered down in a school than there are in transit?
*you actually think
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
@Darwyn - I assume nothing. I am a former VIP Security expert. Did my time in the Corps. Worked with the brave men and women of the Secret Service to secure the President (ever noticed it's Marine uniforms that escort him along with the black suits and sunglasses?). We, and they, knew what we were doing and I'm *telling* you, as na expert in the field at the time, that they did *exactly* what they should have done in a situation where so many things were unknown. They restricted the variables and kept him in a non-descript building that would make a less likely potential airtarget than Airforce One trying to get off the gorund and less of a sniper or convoy attack target than trying to get him outside into his limo or down the road from the school to the airport. This was keeping him safe, *not* knowing he was. You equate keeping someone safe with knowing they aren't a target and that is just bullshit.
SacredDigits (102 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
What about all the variables presented by moving? How to move? Where? Will there be snipers watching? Where will they be? Has anyone tampered with the car? What if the car suffers mechanical failure?

I don't know if you've ever seen a presidential motorcade, but they're pretty enormous and much more obvious than an elementary school. Same with Air Force One.
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
I'll put it simple for you, fucktard.

Move. Problem exacerbated. Variables increased singificantly. Moving through unsure terrain where an ambush could occur at any moment.
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
"Did my time in the Corps."

Thank you for your service.
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
Last post for a little while, I have things to do...

"I believe I just pointed out 3."

You pointed out facts and also assumptions that I never made.
- "the SS on the ground couldnt know that the school was safe" - Fact, by definition of surprise.
- "the president will be more safe in transit without backup" - this is your assumption, not mine. If the president is a target, he's a target. Moving is the only way to guarantee he cannot be one.
-"the SS wasn't holding tight to the president as they made plans for his safe extraction" - they were certainly holding tight to the president. That's why I created the thread.

"where an ambush could occur at any moment"

An ambush requires knowledge of location.

"you obviously think there are more variables hunkered down in a school than there are in transit? "

I think the variables become zero when no one knows where you are.
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
"kept him in a non-descript building that would make a less likely potential airtarget"

On the contrary. Everyone knows where he is. That's the most dangerous place to be. Period. End of story.
SacredDigits (102 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
Man, I totally forgot about the ninja nature of limos. You're right, once he teleports into one and turns on the cloaking device, he's golden.
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
@ Darwyn:

"I've assumed nothing. If the President is a target, he's a target. For as long as he stays in his previously announced location, he continues to be a target."

"Move and he cannot be a target."

There's an assumption right there. You are making the assumption that moving him out of the school would NOT ONLY have increased his safety but, in fact, made it somehow IMPOSSIBLE that he would have been targeted. This is a big assumption.


"If the president is a target, he's a target. Moving is the only way to guarantee he cannot be one."

You have NOT demonstrated that moving him would GUARANTEE he would not be targeted, despite having been repeatedly challenged on this. This therefore represents an assumption, and a pretty unsafe one, at that.


"I think the variables become zero when no one knows where you are."

YET AGAIN I challenge you to demonstrate that it would have been impossible for anyone planning to attack him to either follow him or otherwise observe his movement.
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
"There's an assumption right there."

That's not an assumption, its common sense. If you don't know where something is, you certainly cannot hit it.

"I challenge you to demonstrate that it would have been impossible for anyone planning to attack him to either follow him or otherwise observe his movement. "

You are arguing something else now. I am pointing out that since his location was announced beforehand, he's in the most dangerous place he can be.

Again, no one could safely assume an attack on him wasn't imminent. Staying amounts to hoping nothing will attack him. The Secret Services' job doesn't include hope.

But the Secret Service knew he was safe sitting right there in that school where everyone knew him to be.
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
ME: "I challenge you to demonstrate that it would have been impossible for anyone planning to attack him to either follow him or otherwise observe his movement. "

DARWYN: You are arguing something else now. I am pointing out that since his location was announced beforehand, he's in the most dangerous place he can be.

No, Darwyn. I am not arguing something else. You have previously stated that the secret service could have GUARANTEED the president's safety by removing him from the school. That word, "guaranteed" is your choice of wording, not mine, and you have used it repeatedly in this thread.

To suggest that moving him out of the school would have "guaranteed" his safety is to suggest that once moved out of the school he would have been SAFE from attack, not just a bit safer, but completely safe - otherwise this would not amount to "guaranteeing" his safety.

See my point now?
Darwyn (1601 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
""You have previously stated that the secret service could have GUARANTEED the president's safety by removing him from the school.'

No, Jamie...I've always said explicitly and implied that his safety is guaranteed if no one knows where he is.

"Make his whereabouts unknown and he ceases to be a potential target."
“near impossible becomes impossible when you strip what is known.”
“Move him and nothing can get to him. You cannot make a target of something you cannot locate.”
“With everyone knowing the Presidents agenda, it is impossible to know his stated whereabouts were safe. Period. End of story.”
“Staying invites attack...Moving eliminates it.”
“you cannot target what you cannot see.”
“The point is that no one could have known. But everyone knew where he was. therefore, the only way to guarantee his safety was to move him. The SS did not *guarantee* his safety”
Draugnar (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
I'm going to ask this one last time. How does maving him in a clearly recognizable Presidential Limosine surrounded by big black Secret Service SUVs make him unknown? You say they knew where he was (yes, they knew what building he was in, but not the exact location in the building and *I* guarantee every *possible* entrance to that school was guarded by a Secret Service agent or Marine. No one was getting in without a firefight that would have seen him swept even further into the school and the assailant dead. However, once you move him to the limo, he is exposed while being transported to any sniper keeping a watch on the school you say they knew about *and* the caravan could easily have been followed by anybody either from the air or in a car and a simple set of press to talk radios, cellphones, or channel 14 walkie talkies could relay his location and movements so that one car could veer off and another pick up the trail. Finally, where would they have taken him? If you say Airforce One, I say he is dead before he makes it up the steps. If anywhere else, well the bad guys would have *followed him there* and there would have been little to no prep time to secure wherever it was because you (assuming you were in charge of the operation) insisted on rushing him out without getting the full lay of the land.

Your actions just guaranteed the death of the President of the United States if the terrorists had the ability to target the school building. Where as keeping hi in the school gives him a 75-80% survival rate even if a plane hit it. It's one decent sized elementary school and the hijackers on board wouldn't have a clue where to hit it and which class room he was in.
Jamiet99uk (873 D)
02 Aug 11 UTC
Sorry Darwyn but Draug's got you there. He's had you the whole time. Draugnar is just re-stating his argument, but that's all he has to do as you have not dealt properly with Draugnar's points. Well done Draug. You've won this argument as far as I can see it. Darwyn just can't back up his foolish claim.

If you still don't agree, Darwyn, please IN DETAIL explain how the secret service would have got the President out of the school without exposing him to the threat of sniper fire, and in such a way that he couldn't be followed.

Basically, you're talking about making the President "invisible" but how do you propose they would actually have done that?

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328 replies
Trooth (561 D)
11 Aug 11 UTC
unpause
Unpause your game?
0 replies
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omnomnom (177 D)
11 Aug 11 UTC
The Paused Games
About half my games are still paused, as the people have left. So what now? I don't want to just quit, so how do I get these games to unpause?
3 replies
Open
EdiBirsan (1469 D(B))
11 Aug 11 UTC
Diplomacy in Japanese (and Japan)
My Rotary Club is hosting a young Japanese student who is interested in International Politics. I would like to have contacts in Japan that speak Japanese that can follow up with him on the game.
Please contact me direct off the thread as I do not get here that often.
EdiBirsan AT astound DOT net
1 reply
Open
diplomancer83 (123 D)
08 Aug 11 UTC
Post Game Discussion
gameID=65286 I was turkey, now lets be honest what the heck is going on this game?
35 replies
Open
raphtown (151 D)
13 Jul 11 UTC
Classicists (WWWoD)
See inside for this second stab at bringing the Classicists to WebDip.
63 replies
Open
Madison the Great (0 DX)
10 Aug 11 UTC
1 MORE PERSON
join baby making exrem3.. its a live game. HURRY
0 replies
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G1 (92 D)
10 Aug 11 UTC
New game
1 reply
Open
ghanamann (0 DX)
10 Aug 11 UTC
Live game with suspect plays....
some people also played a lot of games together here....

gameID=65372
16 replies
Open
santosh (335 D)
07 Aug 11 UTC
Account Verification to stop Multi-accounting
Would phone number verification to stop multis be a good idea?
43 replies
Open
Tettleton's Chew (0 DX)
02 Aug 11 UTC
Waste in Obama's Stimulus
This thread will be fun. A list of ineffective pork barrel projects in Obama's stimulus that wasted precious tax dollars.


23 replies
Open
Lance the Great (100 D)
10 Aug 11 UTC
Join live gunboat 124
plz join 1 more.
0 replies
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ghanamann (0 DX)
10 Aug 11 UTC
help
id like opinions of others on this game from experienced players

gameID=65372
9 replies
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Cockney (0 DX)
10 Aug 11 UTC
new live game in 50 mins guys....
join in!
5 replies
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taos (281 D)
09 Aug 11 UTC
the majority suffers because of one player(bad loser)
i play two games where one country doesnt want to stop the pause because they are losing and thats a fact
one of them i know personally and he told me that
so one bad loser ruins the game to the other 6
i think the unpause must be majority like 60 percent or so
6 replies
Open
krellin (80 DX)
10 Aug 11 UTC
Help Me Name my Alt...
Since you hate me so much....I am going to create an alt....I know...that's not right!!!!! you cry. I can't do that!!! Wahhh!!! The Mods surely won't allow it!!! boo hooo hooo....

12 replies
Open
StevenC. (1047 D(B))
08 Aug 11 UTC
Standard & Poor's Downgrades the U.S. Credit Rating...
Discuss.
10 replies
Open
Draugnar (0 DX)
09 Aug 11 UTC
Boston Cont EOG for anyone who wants to post here.
gameID=61416

I'm no good at these, so I'll let someone else do it. But it was a fun and, at times frustrating, game that nearly eneded in a seven way draw and finally finished in a three way draw.
4 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
05 Aug 11 UTC
Math help
See inside
26 replies
Open
Riphen (198 D)
09 Aug 11 UTC
Sooooo
If I mute someone can they still see my post and vice versa?

Cause I want to start a thread about everyone muting said person but I dont want him knowing....it would become a total shock to this person when no one responds to his idiotic posts.
7 replies
Open
pjmansfield99 (100 D)
08 Aug 11 UTC
Foreigners.....
Just wondered if this a completely American site or whether there are any other foreigners on here.... For example I'm English and currently we have major riots and crises in our Capital - any more Brits out there???
74 replies
Open
SpeakerToAliens (147 D(S))
09 Aug 11 UTC
Error while outputting an error...
"Error while outputting an error: Trying to get property of non-object".

This happened when I got my password wrong. I'm not annoyed or anything, I just thought it was strange. I'm sure I got my password wrong on the old server too, but I never saw this.
4 replies
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orathaic (1009 D(B))
09 Aug 11 UTC
anyone for some GDP? mmm tasty GD pie!
http://www.countercurrents.org/heinberg090811.htm
1 reply
Open
King Atom (100 D)
08 Aug 11 UTC
You People...
Hey, I'm trying to really seal it with this girl and I need an unbiased opinion. Surely, there is someone here who I haven't had any interaction with who can give me sound advice.

And like this page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Atom-Foltz-Fan-Page/177064758993901
85 replies
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