The data of what?

You just ignored my counter argument and blanket posted a straw man showing catholics give a lot to charity. Okay.

Anecdotal Yanni

Conservatives donate more *TO THEIR CHURCHES*. Liberals donate more to not-for-profits which have wider audiences.

Yanik for being a non comservative do you ever notice how you go to bat for/align with nearly every single conservative talking point there is?

You always dig up some link that leads to some story that cherry picks 1/18th of the overall debate and say "trust me click here - I found the truth"

@brainbomb

i took a minute to look into your study, and there are some glaring inconsistencies. they included business revenue in with income, but they never accounted for businesses having to reinvest for stock.

the reason why so many people are rich is because they have to reinvest into their companies. if i have a million dollar company, but 900,000$ is tied up in constant resources, then i'm not actually a millionaire.

secondly, the study never addresses liberals and conservatives at the same income level. of course poor people cannot donate as much, but always vote for taxation that takes money away from other people. GREAT values. what you need to compare is upper class liberals to upper class conservatives, and middle class liberals to middle class conservatives (which is done in "Who Really Cares?")

I'll try to find an excerpt i can show you online, but it's clear to me that the two MIT researchers who did this experiment were trying less to find links between conservatism and liberalism and charity, but more to separate religion from conservatism.

attacking the wealth divide is less important than individual responsibility per ideology.

meanwhile the government run programs that liberals love so much, are horribly inefficient even compared to the church. in fact, studies have shown that it's cheaper to house homeless in apartments than in shelters. beautiful.

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-25-homeless_n.htm

If you do some research youll find that among catholics ...

http://religionnews.com/2016/08/30/are-catholics-really-trending-democratic/

Catholics are becoming more and more liberal in the last 10 years. So you are attributing the catholic church as being a purely conservative body. Not true.

The Jesuits for example are the MOST charitable element of catholicism and are also the most liberal. Providing services to missions on Reservations, in central america, and many other places.

@brainbomb

i'm not conservative in some sense of the word, in many other senses i am. i've made my values clear on this forum over the years, and many of them i agree with conservatives on.

@brainbomb

if you actually read the original PEW study you'd find that they say the evagenlicals are overwhelmingly pro Trump

but what about Catholics specifically (because you only have this one talking point and are ignoring churches as an entirety in the USA)

"Hispanic Catholics overwhelmingly favor Clinton over Trump"

oh. yeah we forgot about her massive pro-immigration voter base. maybe the actual BELIEFS tied with catholicism aren't being acted on here, but simple distaste of Trump

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/07/13/evangelicals-rally-to-trump-religious-nones-back-clinton/


which brings me to point 2: TRUMP IS NOT A SMALL GOVERNMENT CONSERVATIVE.

so your entire comment there is a straw man... although it stems from lack of knowledge, not deceit. i'll grant you that

Show statistics on all churches not just catholicism and show what they fund. Show me what Westboro baptist church uses its "charity" money on.

Nothing Trump has done thus far, except for lionizing the military, has indicated he is not a small government conservative. His campaign rhetoric and administration actions are not in sync in this regard.

Signing a Bill to build massive wall
Signing a Bill to send massive mission to mars
Bombing Syria
Massive tax cut
Massive travel ban

Yea hes a small fiscal conservative

your MIT study is really seeming outright hypocritical now since i look into it.

1. they say that there are more rich conservatives, which is why they give more. after all, it's important to understand the nuance that poor people are unable to give as much as rich.

the capability of people to give to charity is important here

2. they ignore the capability of the rich to actually donate, saying it's a "small fraction" of their overall personal wealth, and ignore the entire conundrum of business owners storing wealth in capital which makes up our economy.

the capability of people to give to charity is not important here



then they talk about values and charity.

1. we need to take away charitable contributions to churches, because it's too hard to calculate what percent of that goes to charity (conveniently hurts the Conservative numbers)

because we can't make unbacked claims about the unknown

2. they imagine that the money donated to the red cross and ALL humanitarian efforts is 100% efficient in making it to children, completely ignoring the fact that humanitarian efforts, while true in spirit, are not always the most efficiently run places, and there is quite a bit of waste. but ignore that.

because we must make unbacked claims about the unknown


@brainbomb

"Show statistics on all churches not just catholicism and show what they fund. Show me what Westboro baptist church uses its "charity" money on."

i can't and you know i can't because they don't release the information. but how about YOU provide statistics on the waste/inefficiencies of humanitarian programs? after all, it's the nuance we're delving into.


"Signing a Bill to build massive wall"

using taxpayer money? not the most small government principle but i'll grant you this.

"Signing a Bill to send massive mission to mars"

HOW IS THAT SMALL TAX SMALL GOVERNMENT???

"Bombing Syria"

interventionist? not small government.

"Massive tax cut"

i'll give you this one too. he's got populist tendencies, but his principles aren't the same.

"Massive travel ban

Yea hes a small fiscal conservative"

fiscal conservative --> immigration policy
???????????????????????????

sounds like you're making logical leaps and making assumptions. but i ALSO see you omitted his plan for a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure bill huh? cherry picking much?

also i see you ran away on that catholicism comment, maybe you should actually read the study instead of the headline from a second hand source.

catholics at large aren't voting from Clinton because of catholicism, they are voting for her because the alternative is the populist big government Trump, who hates illegal immigration and is immoral as it comes.

it's an anecdote, that doesn't actually address the connection between ideology and religion.

I'll concede ground to you on one point: what you mean by conservative vs liberal

Fiscal conservative vs fiscal liberals: liberals win every day of the week
Political conservative vs political liberal: conservatives win out
Social conservative vs social liberal: iffy territory

I know plenty of Christian kids who would identify as socially liberal, but I know a plethora of liberal kids who would never consider any mainstream religious person to be truly liberal. On that sense it's an eye of the beholder problem

The most charitable wing of the catholic church is the Jesuits.

https://www.americamagazine.org/issue/486/faith-focus/jesuits-are-too-liberal

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/2gcnn5/just_how_liberal_are_the_jesuits/

@brainbomb

1. don't think i don't remember you bashing leon for using Reddit as a source a while back. shame shame shame.

2. this seems like a problem with reference.

the guy in that article said that birth control and sins like MTV and HBO made him liberal.

but i've watched MTV, HBO and i support birth control, but you've identified me as conservative!

the frame of reference is, you see the "everything is a sin" religious freak to be mainstream conservatism: when that is actually becoming much more fringe.

3. you actually haven't provided me with any numbers on Jesuit chary with either link, you've simply stated that it exists (i believe you but you're being a hypocrite). well, how about the generally conservative mormons, and all the community work they do? since they're not paid, there's no formal value attached to it.

remember ONE WHOLE PAGE AGO when you said this

"Since when is donating to the church the same as charity?"

but now, working with the church is... not charity? or maybe you truly meant ONLY donations, because when i was talking about generosity as a whole to begin with, and used donations as a starting point.

There is more to charity than donating money to the church.

Many things that are forms of charity require things that have nothing to do with money. Visiting the elderly in nursing homes (I do this), after school programs (Ive done this teaching chess to kids and water color painting), Assisting with special needs indivuals (I have done this and my parents cared for two people with down syndrome when I was a kid), being a foster parent (My parents also did this), and yes theres also habitat for humanity, groups that build homes for needy families and so many more things that arent monetary.

If you wanna politicize donations and claim conservatives donate more money thats fine. A few articles on the internet will back you up. But that doesnt change me or what I stand for.

what do you consider conservative and liberal? i feel like we're having an overlap problem in terms and definitions.

Theres also another reason wealthy people give money to charity.

Tax breaks, write offs. There is literally tax relief if you give to charity

@brainbomb

I agree with everything you just posted and i'm not saying that liberals don't partake in such activities. i'm saying that polling and data shows that en masse, these are generally tied to more religious communities, which are generally more conservative. that's all.

the MIT study YOU posted, took into account everything you just said AND DISMISSED IT. it became a sidenote, which they did not consider in their datasets. i'm not purely focused on donations, i'm focused on what ideology has the best generosity effect.

when i say that liberals are attacking he family structure, i don't mean the "classical liberal" model. in fact, the classical liberal is becoming more and more a centrist idea.

the left as we see throughout Europe in outright socialist and marxist parties, has been moving into the USA for some time now. the most successful countries in Europe are probably the ones with a vibrant and consistent culture: Germany, France, Britain. The United States has a beautiful melting plot, with the backdrop of freedom, but we're now seeing attacks on "cultural appropriation" and a series of assaults where everyone is deemed a racist, despite little to no evidence of this.

these attacks are not two sided, the cultural battle is very much the diverse left attacking a fairly religious, white "patriarchal" standard. while there have been many legitimate grievances on the grounds of racism and sexism, things are only becoming more and more vile. look at the student mob that took over Evergreen university a few days ago, the last time we saw this sort of mobilization was vietnam era.

the only change is that the classical liberal fought for equality of freedom, whereas now we are seeing a tribalistic oppressive class of leftists.

if you haven't seen what i was talking about, look up on youtube "bret weinstein" and watch the first two videos or so. and that guy is a PROGRESSIVE and people are trying to get him fired.

@brainbomb

"Theres also another reason wealthy people give money to charity.

Tax breaks, write offs. There is literally tax relief if you give to charity"

this is a fun game to play: show me one tax break for charity that the rich can use that ends as such:

"after the donation has been given, the rich come out with more money than when they went in."

it never happens. the government makes it easier for you to donate, but always when you donate, you do not reap positive rewards.

this is the second biggest tax misconception, number 1 being how tax brackets work, and marginal vs average tax rates, number 3 being the real vs effective tax rate, especially during the eisenhower era

A gift to a qualified charitable organization may entitle you to a charitable contribution deduction against your income tax if you itemize deductions. If the gifts are deductible, the actual cost of the donation is reduced by your tax savings. ... For a person in the highest bracket, 35%, the actual cost is only $65.

Making a charitable donation is not only a chance to make a difference: it’s also an excellent way to reduce your tax burden for the year. The tax benefit is considered a compelling reason for making charitable deductions: more than two-thirds of high-net-worth donors said they would decrease their giving if they did not receive a corresponding tax deduction.

A tax deduction for charitable giving isn’t guaranteed just because you’re feeling generous. As with everything in tax law, it’s important to follow the rules.

-Forbes

@brainbomb

only the charitable contributions aren't taxed come on man

I'm being taxed at a 40% rate, then I can give $500,000 to charity, write it off, and save $200,000 on my taxes. That's a net loss of $300,000. I may have paid less taxes, but it cost me 300 grand.

but there's another way to think about it. Suppose you are being taxed at a 40% rate. You wish to purchase $500,000 worth of diamonds. How much do you have to make in income to do so? You need to make $833,333 in income, pay 40% of that ($333,333) in taxes, and then spend the $500,000 on the diamonds.

But to spend that $500,000 on a charitable donation, you only need to make an income of $500,000, taxed at a rate of 0%, because donations to charity count against your taxable income.

Or, yet another way to think about it, is that if you make $833,333 in income, you can spend it on $500,000 worth of diamonds, or $833,333 worth of charitable contributions; effectively you get to purchase $333,333 worth of charitable contributions "for free" over the equivalent purchase that is not a charitable donation.

you're not making money here

Its still bullshit yanik. Its hardly christian mercy giving when yer getting tax breaks for it.

Incentives to do a good deed. Lmfao.

You are so brainwashed

@brainbomb

you get that credited off your taxes, but only to the extent that you donated money.

it's basically saying the tis a business makes 100 million dollars then they can donate 10 million dollars.

now instead of paying 40 million dollars in taxes at a 40% rate, they only need to pay 30 million dollars in taxes.

SEEE??? they don't gain!!!!

@brainbomb

MY GOD YES. the government is essentially handing out taxpayer money to charity!!!! you get it now!!!

you just accepted a libertarians principle!!!!

When I give to charity I dont run to tax laws to benefit me. Charity IS FUCKING CHARITY.

I dont need a fucking bag of peanuts to give my time or money to a cause.