Though I am inclined to read guak as town as well.

@damian: I was trying to see some reactions to this vote. Yoyo is probably the best kill for today, but I also want to have an open mind while reading Vecna as a bo-Vecna pairing is also possible.

Holy fucking shit you cannot be more scummy, guak. Did you actually just say that?

Do you have any actual questions Yoyo? Or are you just going to OMGUS away?

Explain to me how that is so scummy, Yoyo.

>Yoyo is the best kill
>but I'm going to have an open mind of a bo-vecna pairing.

Hmm... looks like you're trying to set up a strawman for if we lynch Vecna .
Also, wtf? If you lynch me, your other scum group won't matter because it'll be game over. There are only 2 scum left.

Quite interesting there was a no vote and a pause two nights in a row. I might've been more inactive in the thread but i have been online every day to vote and look after my games and important stuff. Besides there are two scum left, so clearly they are using their nk votes to try and push the lynch vote in a certain direction.

I'm somewhat surprised to see it was yoyo since he has been one of my strongest town reads during d1 and d2. I'll have a lot of reading up to do to determine my vote today it seems.

Surprised it was yoyo to bring up my possible link to the extension and my being in Paris that is

@Yoyo: how come you chose to skip the word probably? My point is precisely that I want to be thorough in my analysis. Meaning that I want to see if Vecna or bo are scum and whether there is a slight chance you are town. Your reaction tells me you are scum though.

@Vecna ... why are you surprised about Yoyo? I don't understand what you're saying.

Maybe he is surprised Yoyo is bussing him?

To clarify;
-I've townread yoyo for pretty much the entire game.
-I'm claiming the no-vote and the extension of the nk phase is a scum tactic to get certain people lynched (aka me).
-yoyo brings it up and makes the connection between my absence and the night phase events. Strong scumread for me.
-the surprise is mainly that my earlier observations might've been wrong

Day 5 Official Vote Count #2

Yoyoyozo (2): damian, bo_sox48
Vecna (1): guak

Not voted: Yoyoyozo, Vecna

Currently YOYOYOZO is set to be lynched. 4 hours 3 minutes remain.

I don't see anything particularly scummy about Yoyo and wjessop on day 1. The only thing I'll say is that wjessop was the one pulling the reaction test, and he immediately gave Yoyo a slight town read on page 11. He implies pretty strongly that Yoyo passed the reaction test, at least as well as he could, and I am inclined to agree with him. Yoyo seemed genuine and stood firm.

DL and subsequently others have made a point that very few people (DL, Espi, and myself) were online at the EOD3. There is a pairing that we haven't really looked at as a group that could make sense - guak and Vecna. I'm going to list a few reasons why this is possible.

First off, regarding the absence of a third wagon -

a) Vecna's last post of the day was on page 51, but the day didn't end until the beginning of page 55. Timestamps are gone, but this is obviously a long gap. As such, it makes sense that Vecna didn't start a third wagon or have any say at all in the lynch.

b) Espi tried to start a third wagon (conveniently against Yoyo). He tried to push DL to go for either damian or for Yoyo, and then when I came online, he tried to get me to go for Yoyo. Neither of these votes gained any traction, but the point is this - in LYLO, Espi would have simply planted his vote on guak, already an established wagon, if guak were town. It would have made it 3-3 with DL left to vote. Instead, he unvoted, waited around, and only planted his vote on guak when it was clear that he wasn't going to get another wagon going and after DL voted for him. It's strange behavior if guak is town. There would be no reason to even bring up another wagon.

Regarding Vecna -

a) As I said before, Vecna disappeared at EOD3. However, he was immediately around after the EOD3. Timestamps are gone, so it's impossible to say how immediate he was, but the fact of the matter is that he was there. Did he watch without comment or did he simply plan on appearing after the day ended? Why didn't he push the lynch that, in his first night post, he acts like he was so clearly behind the whole time? This seems like a cop-out on the whole of D3.

This seems even more strange when he says this right off the bat at the beginning of N3:

"Ive been scumreading and trying to get him lynched for most of the time since day1"

This is actually pretty hilarious. This is Vecna's post on page 48:

"Scumreads:

ESPI + MANIAC + ?

Townreads:: Yoyo (has been my townread together with wjessop from like page 10 or so)

Unclear: The rest of the people could all be the third scum id say. DL is the most likely id say since he also jumped on the ND wagon without any reasoning on day 1 and lead the jeff train on day2.

For now im going with my primary vote that ive been casting the entire game. Maniac has been escaping the lynch the entire game. He'll die and we lynch espi next if he turns up scum (which he will). Im ofcourse fine with doing it the other way around as well.

[]vote maniac"

Obviously, he is scumreading Espi and Maniac together. Makes sense.

This is the vote count on page 50:

"Day 3 Vote Count #3

Damian (2): Espi, Vecna
Espi (2): guak, Damian
Vecna (1): Yoyoyozo
bo_sox48 (1): DeathLlama8

Unvoted: bo_sox48

Currently NO ONE is set to be lynched! 9 hours 10 minutes remain."

He's still on Maniac/damian.

On page 51, Vecna posts a long analysis of me. In the middle of the second post of this analysis, he quotes me:

">>"Never mind, Espi slipped. []VOTE ESPI, we have all three."

THIS IS HIS VOTE FOR ESPI ON DAY 3. IT'S NOT EVEN HIS VOTE, IT'S MINE.

He never voted for Espi meaningfully. His vote was only there because he quoted me voting for Espi. He voted for Maniac/damian. He clearly didn't want to bus, but according to his first night post, he had been trying to get Espi lynched from the beginning.

This was his final post of D3.

b) "In my mind Guak isnt 100% scum yet. Since as I pointed out as well he actually has been the only one consistently trying to lynch espi. This might just be a ploy to make him appear town wheneverr Espi did get lynched - But he couldve easily swinged the vote during the last day to make mafia outright win there - if he was actually mafia."

This makes no sense. How could he have swung the vote so that the mafia won?

c) "To reinforce the point I was trying to make; If my suspicions are right of the Espi/Maniac + DL or yoyo team - then trying to bandwagon on Guak is the likely choice to outright win the game there."

As DL pointed out, I was on the guak wagon. According to Vecna, bandwagoning guak is scum's method of winning the game in LYLO, and yet one of the two people that pushed it hardest (the other being Yoyo) is his strongest townread.

Moreover, just a post before he said "guak isn't 100% scum yet." Now he is TRing guak. How can you go from having no clue in your first night post to acting like there is only a small chance that he isn't scum to saying that guak is town and that the wagon against him was the mafia's choice strategy to win the game - all while adamantly refusing to criticize one of the two main perpetrators of the guak wagon?

d) Since EOD3, Vecna is yet to push Yoyo. He seems to be drifting toward it as I write this (on page 61), and on page 48 he seemed to imply some sort of animosity toward Yoyo, but he still hasn't pushed him. He also calls him one of his strongest town reads on D1 and D2, which means that two of his biggest townreads - Yoyo and myself - were pushing the guak wagon, and yet the guak wagon is mafia's strategy to win in LYLO.

All of these contradictions bring me to believe that Vecna is scum. Beyond this, he simply hasn't been present. The only memorable thing he has done all game is refuse to share his analysis of the game back on D1. Since then, he has been in the shadows and continues to play that way throughout LYLO.

Regarding guak -

a) As I pointed out before, Espi actually tried to get a third wagon going. He simply failed because no one, particularly his partners, were around. In LYLO, he wouldn't do this if guak were town. He would be trying to push DL toward guak, which, given DL's hesitancy to vote Espi in the first place, wouldn't have been too hard.

b) guak has an incredibly complex voting record so far (/s). He has voted for a total of one player throughout this *entire game* - Espi. On D1, he voted for Espi and stayed there. On D2, he voted for Espi and stayed there. On D3, he voted for Espi and stayed there. He never changed it up once other than to vote no-lynch with the rest of us. He didn't even investigate anyone else.

If this doesn't seem weird yet, read Vecna's first night post on page 55 again:

"Guak even though totally and utterly useless has been voting for him since day1 - elaborate bus or just useless town I have no clue."

Elaborate bus. Elaborate bus. Elaborate bus. It's what guak does.

On D1, he voted for Espi because of his "meltdown." From then on, his list just kept growing as Espi slipped up. This is basically all he has done the entire game thus far.

I also noticed that, from N1-D2 and beyond, he seemed to bus Espi harder. The cop's death D1 means that, from then on, the godfather is just another mafia, but before the cop died, it would have been poor play to bus Espi incredibly hard.

c) The mafia nightkills do not scream inexperience with webDip forum mafia. Moreover, they line up closely with guak's style - kill talkers. They killed ghug on N1, who everyone that's ever played on webDip knows to be a threat as town. They killed wjessop on N2, the guy who was filling the air the most. This allows guak and Vecna to lurk, but now that Espi, their talkative and distracting puppet, is dead, they have to come out of the shadows at least a little bit. That's why, unlike previous days, they're both here, even though they're not actively contributing. The N3 no-kill was, plain and simple, a smart mafia play, and guak is a smart mafia player, but I think the N1 and N2 nightkills are better places to start.

Some questions -

@Vecna

Where were you during the majority of D3?

Explain the lack of development of your read of guak. How does it change so little in substance but take a full 180? He was scum one minute and town the next.

How were you trying to get Espi lynched since D1 if you didn't even mean to vote for him on D3?

@guak

Explain this to me. I know I'm town, and I just made my case that you and Vecna are scum.

"Yoyo is probably the best kill for today, but I also want to have an open mind while reading Vecna as a bo-Vecna pairing is also possible."

This is a hell of a setup. Vecna flips scum, but it's still LYLO, so I get lynched next. Explain this line please.

Why didn't you vote for anyone other than Espi?

You promised a case on Vecna - where is it? You're doing that thing again where you say "^^ SCUM" and walk away.

Why would Espi try to start a third wagon at the EOD3 if you're town?

@guak ...

"Basically, at this point I am so sure that Yoyo is scum that I am looking for his teammate and I think it may be Vecna, which is why Iam voting for him."

You're voting for Vecna on the basis that Yoyo is his partner on page 60, but you're saying that I might be his partner on page 61. Yet, simultaneously, you're saying that Yoyo is bussing him.

Town, we need to coalesce our votes. I'll vote for either of those two.

##UNVOTE

Actually, no, guak should go first. ##VOTE guak

The whole EOD3 thing is foolproof.

I'm on a break at work, I just finished reading your massive post on Guak and Vecna. I think you might have me convinced about Guak. I was wondering what to make of Espi's attempt to start a wagon on Yoyo, and this fits. Bo, your vote is still on Yoyo as far as I could see, do you still think he is the best lynch today?

Nope, Yoyo's town.

Ignore the last bit, it's a cross post. Hmm, I'll probably be on one more time before deadline, unless my last break is really late. So hopefully I'll be around tif I need to switch before deadline beI'l

## Vote Guak

I would like to add, I really don't like the way both Vecna and Yoyo have been holding their votes today. It almost feels like they are waiting for something. It's especially weird for Yoyo, since he should be starting a train on one of his suspects

@bo: a setup for what? This is LYLO. Why would I risk appearing scummy like this when I am aware of the risks of considering other options? If I were scum all I needed to do was vote Yoyo and keep pushing. You are accusing me of being scum because I have an open mind? My point has been that while I am pretty sure that Yoyo is scum I need to explore other possibilities too since this is LYLO.

You are basing your entire case on the fact that I bus? That is just you being pissed off at me for bussing you when we were scum partners. But you know you deserved to be bussed. Espi was basically on the clear after D2. Why would I bus my mafia partner in a LYLO situation when hardly anyone is scumreading him? That makes no sense.

You are clearing Yoyo based on wjessop's opinion on p11, and dismissing the entire case against Yoyo which is filled with scumminess that happened way after that. I have a hard time believing that wjessop's reaction test in p11 helps explain all of the unanswered questions damian and me have asked Yoyo. I also have to say that your attack on me is a great diversion from answering the questions damian asked you.

Also, Espi basically attempted to start a new wagon to frame me and clear his mafia buddy Yoyo, because at that point he was pretty much sure he was going to be killed, or that I was going to be killed and mafia would had instantly won.

@bo: Why would Espi risk exposing a mafia partner by trying to start a new wagon when his alleged mafia partners were not around?

"Why would I risk appearing scummy like this when I am aware of the risks of considering other options?"

It's not scummy in itself. I disagree with Yoyo on that. The reason it is scummy is because you have made out Vecna to have two different partners in the last page. It seems to me your only concern is for him to die, allowing you to redirect it tomorrow. That's a bus.

"You are accusing me of being scum because I have an open mind?"

Nah, those are your words.

"You are basing your entire case on the fact that I bus?"

I'm basing my case off of EOD3, the fact that, until today, you hadn't voted a single player besides Espi, who happened to be scum, and that the mafia strategy matches your MO. It also matches mine, so that should be defensible, and I'm surprised you haven't tried to rebut it.

How was Espi in the clear after D2? He was clearly not, he got lynched D3. There were plenty of people scumreading him, and you had been on him throughout. Vecna pointing out that you could be participating in an "elaborate bus" when, in fact, you may very well be, makes it all the more suspicious.

I'm clearing Yoyo in that instance, based on wjessop's read and my own subsequent interpretation of those events. I said before that I was going to take a look at the Yoyo/wjessop shitstorm back on day 1, and that's what I did. I am willing to gamble that Yoyo is town, though, since I am fairly certain that you and Vecna are partners. Process of elimination.

If damian has questions for me, he should ask them. I'm not aware of any unanswered questions.

"Why would Espi risk exposing a mafia partner by trying to start a new wagon when his alleged mafia partners were not around?"

Because he's dumb and desperate in LYLO. Is this that far-fetched?

Question for you, guak - why are you so insistent that Yoyo is scum and why are you voting for Vecna if you also believe that I may be Vecna's partner? Why are you giving yourself a back up? This is LYLO - once you're wrong, you're wrong. You call Yoyo Espi's "mafia buddy" and yet you criticize me for wondering what the purpose of throwing around the idea that I am Vecna's partner and that Yoyo isn't. I don't understand how you aren't seeing my issue with this.

Day 5 Official Vote Count #3

guak (2): damian, bo_sox48
Vecna (1): guak

Not voted: Yoyoyozo, Vecna

Currently GUAK is set to be lynched. 2 hours 30 minutes remain.

@bo: it's LYLO, if I were scum, why would I want to delay the game further? You are failing to answer this question. I already said I came out of the gate voting Vecna and not Yoyo because I wanted to see reactions. I was particularly interested in seeing if my vote would spur Vecna into action (was rather hopingsomeone would join me). It did not.

The reason why I have not written a case is because I read Vecna completely during the night and the only case to be made is that he has been completely useless and that he is lurking really hard in the late game. Thus, I wanted to see how he would react to some pressure. My logic says that on LYLO 3-2 scum would want to lurk instead of trying to manipulate town and just hope two town wagons naturally form. Thus, I expect lurking behavior from scum at this point in the game and Vecna fits that pattern (Yoyo too, because even if he is around he is not really doing anything or trying to do anything).In other words, I expected scum Vecna to react to pressure and become more active when he realized two town wagons would not happen. Vecna passed this test, and that means one of two things, either Yoyo and Vecna are both scum and the reason why Vecna did not react is because there was another mafia wagon already formed or that Vecna is town. This actually elimninates the possibility of a Bo-Vecna team, meaning that it is either Bo-Yoyo or Vecna-Yoyo (or damian and I have been wrong all game about Maniac/damian, but I am willing to gamble on damian being town).

Therefore, ##VOTE Yoyo.

Oh, and by the way, @bo: go back and reread D3 and see if your proposed scumteam makes any sense. The wagon on Espi was basically formed by me and damian and Vecna was the one that gave it power. If he and I had both switched there would had been no wagon on Espi (vote was 3 for Espi and split everywhere else).