Here's the thing, Chaqa. Yes, the issue is not so cut and dry that the patriarchy benefits men in all cases. You've listed some places where society does favor women. These are, however, dwarfed by the ways in which it doesn't, and they all still come from an inherent sexism (women are too weak to commit crimes, it's the woman's job to raise the child, etc.). Every feminist I know is in favor of correcting these things as they are in favor of correcting all issues of gender equality, but it's a hard process to change people's mindsets, and there are, frankly, bigger issues, like the prevalence and tolerance of sexual assault in our culture that simply deserve to be addressed first.

When you argue "oh, sometimes it's bad for men too we need to talk about that also", you're not saying anything new. You're not bringing to light issues people haven't considered or exposing flaws in feminist logic. You're undermining the goal of equality by establishing an "us vs. them" mindset. Whether that's out of prejudice, or selfishness, or simply speaking without fully analyzing the issue, it's counterproductive, and you should stop doing it.

So basically, fall in line? That seems awfully "us vs. them," ghug. Are outside opinions somehow offensive now?

Leftists don't like confronting facts or data especially when it is against their talking points and narratives (99% of the time it is).

Not necessarily offensive, but certainly unhelpful.

ND you wanna answer my question?

##VOTE ND until he does.

@Jamie: A cultural marxist is someone who believes and follows the tenets of praxis and critical theory as put forward by the Frankfurt School and perpetuated over the past 50 years.

Facts and data also confront rightist talking points.

I have nothing to fear the data is on my side in most cases.

the problem is @ghug it's not ONLY the right causing the "us vs them" mentality.

some people on both sides are at fault

Political left and right are both stupid. We take every issue and try to assign one side to each and then get all worked up over it all.

@ ND: You really think a significant proportion of WebDip forumites follow the tenets of the Frankfurt School? Most people in this forum have never even heard of the Frankfurt School, I would imagine.

What are those "tenets of praxis" to which you refer? A very odd phrase.

All of this was a perfect answer to ctsamm's question.

Rightists enjoy citing statistics but either take them incredibly out of context or gloss over what they really mean or indicate, or any failure in the way the statistics are gathered. That's data, but I'm not sure that can be called "facts."

#CentristForLife

Yes, Chaqa. If you believe in equality, there are more productive ways to achieve it than saying what you're saying. If that's what you want, fall in line. If not, you're welcome to your opinion, but you should say that.

@Prado - I don't think that it's fair to generalize that rightists take statistics out of context. Everyone is capable of misusing statistics or studies, and I for one have seen people from all points of view do the same thing... even people I agree with. We're simply more likely to call people on mistakes when we're already poised to disagree with them.

@Jamiet - ND is an historian. I read his statement as an historical argument that goes something like this: "while many people may not know what the Frankfurt School is, it has had so much influence in the history of ideas, especially political philosophy, that most might not realize that they implicitly accept its basic tenets. Since I [ND] have seen the historical details surrounding this particular era of history, I am more likely to notice the subtle influence of the Frankfurt School, and I'm in a position to share with you what I've noticed about historical influence, if you'd like hear."

Ghug, were you an Iron Man or Captain America supporter in Civil War?

I was being slightly satirical of ND's own statements, as my own statement was statistically flawed.

people probably don't know what it is. I agree on that point, but the philosophy of the school has been absorbed by liberal causes and society to such an extent many are unknowingly subscribing to an intellectual movement -that they may not know even exists-.

Just saying, the Frankfurt School popularized and basically created cultural marxism, which is the type of ideology I see a lot on this site. See the links below for what praxis in marxist terms and critical theory mean.

Here are some links to what those two terms mean in relation to cultural marxism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxis_(process) -see the Marxist section-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School -see the critical theory section-

Obviously, most people don't read or know about an intellectual movement that started in the 1920s-50s. This is because the Frankfurt philosophers wrote in German while living in exile in the United States. However, their writings were translated and became mainstream during the 1960s student protests. Since then many have taken their ideas and mainstreamed them and now pretty much everywhere you look in the modern left you will see and hear echos of this intellectual group.

"I didn't tell anyone what they should prioritize. I said I *wish* they would push a more egalitarian agenda."

You know how that sounds, I wish they'd advocate for my personal issues, while i sit here ignoring theirs.

Rather than you taking responsibility to advocate for yourself.

The default responce from femminists should be, we're out here fighting the good fight, please join us. But fuck off telling us how to do our job.

And the word egalitarian is no a magic bullet, each and every person will advocate for what they see as the greatest injustices first. And their subjective view will be biased af. Feminism means you believe in gender equality. That is all.

@Teacon: Well stated. Exactly.

Also, 'cultural marxism' from what i can tell, is an invention of the American right. I've only heard them talk about it. It is one of the most ridiculous idea i've ever come across.

Here is a nice link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYQo6LI3Y7c

See: "Marxian sense, means taking the ideology of a society (for example, the belief in individual freedom or free market capitalism) and critiquing it by comparing it with a posited social reality of that very society (for example, social inequality and exploitation). Frankfurt School theorists grounded this on the dialectical methodology established by Hegel and Marx."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Dialectic_of_Enlightenment_and_Minima_Moralia

Is this making sense to you now? If you are going to subscribe to a narrative/ideology at least know where it originated.

The reason I don't advocate for myself is because, like most people, I have more important things to do. Job, friends, family, etc., and I don't live in a big city where these sorts of things are feasible.

Also, and more interesting to me, when you say "gender equality", how far does that go? Is that to say that the opportunities, etc. should be the same, or do you think that there is literally no difference between men and women? I'm just curious about this one, because it's a question that can help explain a lot of how the world is how it is. (i.e. men are in positions of power historically because men are physically stronger on average, meaning they took on the roles of fighter, hunter, etc., which evolved into the concepts of Chiefs, Kings, and so forth)

@Prado - oh okay, I must have misread you. :/ Carry on. For what it's worth, I'll suggest that the history of ideas is just as important as measuring statistics. the stats help us understand the means towards a thing, but the ideas help us understand the ends.

@ND - that's fascinating and terrifying. I'm sure there were other contributors to the current mess we have today, but it is what it is. If you've got a second, I'd love to hear a couple things: what was the basic shape of the Frankfurt's School's anthropological assumptions? And who/what were they breaking away from, that they were a radical movement? ....are those short answer questions or ...not? :/

@Orathaic: Hahaha, no, it isn't some invention. It has been an established intellectual movement for well over fifty years. Just read about it and enlighten your mind.

@orthraic - I'm pretty sure the phrase "cultural marxism" came out of the American right, but what they're describing is neither imaginary nor benign. Everyone has philosophical principles underlying their political, cultural, or moral opinions. "cultural marxism" is a name and description for a philosophy that drives, if you believe the claim, much of the "left." Rather than dismiss the term as an invention, perhaps we could come up with a more accurate description of the same thing?

Well yeah I doubt they call themselves "Cultural Marxists" but just about every original Frankfort philosopher was a follower of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Instead of looking at just materialistic concepts which you know is what Marx did in Das Kapital, they looked at culture and society. Hence the genesis of the label "cultural marxist" and they only did this for the West (didn't bother with the Soviet Union, you know because it was so great and all /sarcasm).

@Teacon: I don't have time to really answer that now. I am going to be leaving soon, but when I have time later I'll provide a detailed answer.