Well, hmm. Who's Lisa? I'd probably say "lady" by default. If I saw a bunch of my female friends it would almost certainly be girls.

You know what might help? I'm 19 years old, so my group of female friends is in the 18-21 category. That change your impression at all? I figure most people knew that about me, but if I'm somehow perceived as a 35-year-old, then I see where this is a different situation...

"This is a case, however, that I don't think is actually oppressive to women." - Well yes, it's a very subtle problem. That's kinda what makes this UNCONSCIOUS. If it were something I could point out, and you'd immediately go "Wait you're right that is sexist!" It would hardly be an unconscious, socially ingrained bias, would it?

""Gal" is an endearing term often used in reference to white females in the South. That's ridiculously weak. If it ever had racial connotations in the past, those are dead and gone now."

No, it was a term used by white men to refer to black women. Which is why black women find the term offensive. It is the equivalent of "boy". The fact that you're not even willing to acknowledge this says all I need to know.

How is "woman" not offensive? It was the word *man* right in it! Honestly, if I had to guess, I'd say the word "woman" was worst of all of them.

And, yes, I can say "woman," if, for whatever reason, that's the only acceptable term. However, there's places that seems really odd. For instance, I would not address a group of female friends as "Hey women".

"No, it was a term used by white men to refer to black women. Which is why black women find the term offensive. It is the equivalent of "boy". The fact that you're not even willing to acknowledge this says all I need to know."

Don't be so obtuse. I said "is," not "was." I had no idea it had racial connotations in the past, which is why I threw in the qualifier. Truthfully, in 19 years of living in the South, which I'm almost certain is 19 years longer than you, I have not once heard the word "gal" used in reference to anyone but white females (of all ages). I've heard white women reference each other with it, white girls reference each other with it, guys reference white women with it, never once in reference to a black woman.

Again. Whatever the past connotation, it's dead and gone, and as far as I've heard it used, is an endearing term for white females.

"The fact that you're not even willing to acknowledge this says all I need to know."

I have never heard this before. I doubt if anyone I know knows this either.

"I've heard white women reference each other with it, white girls reference each other with it, guys reference white women with it, never once in reference to a black woman."

Right, because if you did there would be hurt feelings. Just like I'm sure "boy" is not used anymore. This is progress.

@ Abg

Why is it so hard to say "Hey you all" or "Hey everyone".

I have to go to sleep, but I'm seriously walking away from this conversation terribly confused.

-I simply do not understand how a situation can be offensive if all parties involved are not offended.

-You can't tell me that *every* term for a group is offensive. What am I supposed to say then? Yeah, sure I guess I could always call everyone woman a "woman," but that can get repetitive and it can be very awkward and odd. For instance, should I correct my female friends when they say they're having a "Girls' night out"? Are they putting themselves down?

Anyway we're clearly at an impasse that isn't going to be resolved anytime soon, so if you'll excuse me, I'll return to oppressing women by saying a non-oppressive word in a non-oppressive context with non-oppressive intent to a WOMAN who does not feel oppressed by my usage of aforesaid non-oppressive word. Bona nocte!

Another reason why socialism is superior - the term comrade. It's so nice to be able to say "The comrade from Milwaukee" when I talk with friends in the organization.

"Why is it so hard to say "Hey you all" or "Hey everyone"."

I'll tell you exactly why. If I'm not forced to go through verbal hoops and ladders, you know what I'm going to start to think?

"Oh no, better be careful when girl--er--women are around! Don't want to hurt their feelings."
"Uh oh, was that offensive? Maybe I better not talk to her any more."
"Oh boy--er--man, I called her a girl out of habit I hope she'll sleep at night."

Now, I'm treating women different than I treat others and *not* in a good way. Isn't that the exact opposite effect we are striving for?

"You know what might help? I'm 19 years old, so my group of female friends is in the 18-21 category." Not really. I'm 24, and sort of a grad student and I have friends that range from 19 - 30, almost all university students or recent graduates. I understand why, I even find it natural to use the word girl too. It's a conscious effort not to, and I was resistant to the idea for a long time myself.

The point is this. Our society is structured in such a way which is intended to make people automatically think less of women than they do of men. You might disagree with this, but I don't think of that as a controversial point. If you do have a problem with that statement, this conversation needs to go deeper than I realized.

Assuming you are on that page with me, I'll move forward. Part of the structure of society is bound up in the words we use, and the words we think are appropriate to use in certain settings. In its strict usage the word "girl" refers to a female child. It also is used colloquially to refer to mature, adult women. Do you not see how casually referring to adult women with the same term you'd use for a 5 year old is perhaps not the most respectful approach? And you might say "Oh but I don't mean it like that." or "Oh but they know not to take it that way." and I'm not doubting that either of those statements is true. But the fact is, we need language to think, and our language use really does impact the way we think about things. You might say "Oh that girl over there" and not actually be thinking of her as a 5 year old consciously, but your immediate unconscious reaction isn't quite so easily controllable.

'For instance, I would not address a group of female friends as "Hey women".' - Would you say "Hey girls"? That just falls on my ears so strangely.
Would you say "Hey ladies"? Would you then fix the jukebox by hitting it with your fist, and then saying "aaaaaaaaay!"
Why not just "Hey!"

Comrade? You patronizing fuck.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/7/73/20110128211654!Trollface.png

Oh, I thought Mafia left for the night. Better read this before I go because I know I'll wake up and not bother.

""Girls' night out"? Are they putting themselves down?"

Are we really going through all this trouble just to be able to say "girls night out"? If they call it that, then they're calling it that. It's a reflection of backward societal norms, but it has nothing to do with you, and it's a good idea not to correct groups about how they self-identify, even if the terms aren't helpful.

Mkay. In short, I'm not sure I buy that society is inherently structured to put women down. I can think of plenty examples of individual actors within society -- individual actors who have quite a bit of influence in society -- doing so. Unequal pay across all professions for no really valid reason is a good example.

But I don't think I'm so readily going to accept that society as a whole is structured that way, and that the individuals are simply unconsciously acting on societal impulses when they do overtly (or even not overtly) discriminatory things. You're going to need to give me a little more explanation than that.

And since the rest of the post is dependent upon accepting that premise, I'll wait to pass judgment until I'm accepting that premise.

@Mafia

I'm not so good with jukeboxes, but I use the term "lady" a lot, too. Is that a term of respect or disrespect? I guess I don't know.

Why can't I just say "Hey"?

Because I say "Hey guys", "Hey dudes", "Hey gents", etc.

So, the natural thing seems to be to say "hey girls", "hey ladies", "hey dudettes"

But, I guess I can't say any of those anymore? So, now every time I see a group of ladies, my first thought won't be whatever it was, it will be "how am I not going to offend this oppressed, weaker people?"

That can't possibly be what you want, but that is the only reaction I have to this conversation.

Actually, since this conversation is ultimately "my cultural view > yours," you could just take this route:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/192/005/tumblr_lt9x2isgL11qa69wso1_r1_500.gif?1319741259

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/newsfeed/000/158/698/tumblr_lokck8bYVQ1qdp2veo1_500.gif?1318992465

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/newsfeed/000/172/295/LOOKATALLTHEFUCKS.jpg?1315604935

I'm sure at this point I already look like a total jackass, so whatever. This is going to be my reaction until I have my moment of enlightenment regarding this issue, should I ever have such a moment.

I wasn't saying "ladies" is necessarily offensive. It's just the only time I've ever heard someone say "ladies" unironically it was in a sitcom...

@ President Eden - Well basically you've just asked for a summary of one of the core concepts of second and third wave feminism, which I think is a little beyond beyond my ability to explain cogently here. I suggest you look up the feminist concept of "patriarchy" there are hundreds of feminist scholars who have explained the concept much better than I could ever hope to.

"Are we really going through all this trouble just to be able to say "girls night out"? If they call it that, then they're calling it that. It's a reflection of backward societal norms, but it has nothing to do with you, and it's a good idea not to correct groups about how they self-identify, even if the terms aren't helpful."

I don't think it's a trivial question. It's a popular saying. If I refer to it, am I being disrespectful, even if that's what they-themselves call it?

Should I ask my friends how "women's weekend" went instead?

You can't tell me I'm wrong and then not tell me how to do things differently. That's not conducive to a solution at all.

"Should I ask my friends how "women's weekend" went instead?" How about just "how was your weekend?" If she spent it with her female friends, why do you need to specify? If she said "girls night out" and you want to know how her night was, why not just say "how was your evening?" Presumably if she went out on the town, she'll know what you mean.

More to the point, ask yourself this question. Why do you feel the need to use gender specific terminology or language, in situations where it doesn't serve to specify anything. All of your instances of "why can't I say girl or lady!?" are all examples in which gender specific terminology is completely superfluous.

"Why do you feel the need to use gender specific terminology or language, in situations where it doesn't serve to specify anything"

I've answered this many times. Because, for some reason, it *is* acceptable to refer to something as "boys night out." Why the double standard?

And, in this case, the gender is *not* superfluous because it was an activity designed for only men or only women.

We don't (or at least I don't). There's not a need to do it.

However, I sure don't see any merit in restricting my choice of language in a 1-to-1 conversation to appease entities that are not in any way relevant to the conversation.

"Mkay. In short, I'm not sure I buy that society is inherently structured to put women down."

Really? Have you ever turned on a television? Or walked in the magazine aisle of a store? And that's just advertisements. You can't even get an Arby's commercial that isn't replete with sexual objectification of women. How about the fact that there are barely any female lead actresses who are plain looking or heavier, but plenty of ugly or heavy lead male actors. How the hell did Tommy Lee Jones get a career in acting? Ray Romano? Kevin James?

And that's just media. How about politics. When John Boehner or Glenn Beck cry constantly, it's acceptable. Clinton cried once and immediately her fitness for being President was called into question, for being too weak. Women are forced to act "tough" and "manly", else they're ejected from the top eschelons of the political world.
Look at the case of Elena Kagan. They put pictures of her playing softball in the damn newspapers for christ's sake. They questioned her sexuality because she was single. They did a similar thing with Condileeza Rice. Single, successful women are just anathema in our society. There's a reason why both the government and the business world is dominated by men and is overwhelmingly male. Strong women are "bitchy" or "butch", strong men are "natural leaders".

And then there's the obvious fact of the legislation being passed or proposed. Look at what they tried to pull in Mississippi, or the laws against pregnant women falling down stairs, or the proposed law against miscarriage "manslaughter" in Georgia, or the fake "clinics" that outnumber real reproductive health clinics, or the fact that women can't even go to clinics for check ups without being shouted at, harassed, their pictures taken and posted on the internet, etc.

Or the fact that ED medicine gets covered by insurance but contraception for women does not.

"Because, for some reason, it *is* acceptable to refer to something as "boys night out." Why the double standard?" And I've answered that, though only once. Because there is no history or current structure which oppresses men, as a group. It's the same reason why no one is fighting like hell to make sure that straight people have access to marriage rights. Or why we don't need laws to make sure that cisgendered people have access to surgical procedures to make sure they stay in their correct gender. There's just no point.

Also again why do we need to use gendered language in referring to a "boys night out"? Why not just "a night out with friends"? You might say "well I do different things if I'm just with guy friends rather than a mixed gender group" and that's probably true. But why!? Because everyone is busy conforming to restrictive gender norms! Your language use doesn't have to reinforce that!

"You can't tell me I'm wrong and then not tell me how to do things differently. That's not conducive to a solution at all."

I just told you what to do about it. I said it's not your issue. If they identity it that way then they identify it that way. Girls Night Out is not the same as "Hey Girls" or "that girl (30 year old woman) over there said". You're just trying to come up with picky situations because you've provided no other real argument other than "well nobody has objected".

So, instead, why don't we just agree that "girl" isn't meant to be dismissive; it's just the female version of "guy"? Isn't that just as good (and just as realistic) solution to not using the world all together?


Most of the time, I hang out with a mix of guys and girls, but there are activities that the guys like and the girls don't. For instance, the girls don't play video games as seriously as the guys do, so that has been deemed, for us at least, to be a guy activity. That isn't to say that they can't participate, but they rarely, if ever, want to.