“demands the US pay reparations for all the past taxes seized from blue states ”

Does this mean you finally recognize taxation as theft?

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/10/gross-dishonesty-mainstream-media-catalonia/

discussion of mainstream media response to Catalan vote.

You all seem to have missed the whole "34 states vote to divide the country". The blue states as a whole are as big as the red states. It's done by agreement. You're splitting the country in half, so there is neither any rebellion nor a case that that one half deserves to keep everything. After all the proposed blue states represent about 130 million and the redstates about 190 million. So, you're saying the 190 millions half keeps everything? That's precisely the attitude that makes division such a good idea. Of course, we make up two thirds of the economy. So fine take all the assets you can take (land stays with the country it's in. Sorry states are the decedants of the old federal state. You keep the debt too. Done

Sorry, do you have any data to back that up? California has a third support before the issue is even seriously discussed. No one has ever polled New York or Massachusetts so far as I can find

Actually, it'd be an open question which half of the US would inherit the UN seat. I'm sure a lot of countries would rather see the coastal rational half retain it The UN is in New York after all

Actually not so badly, except for Russian mischief. But that's quite different. The Soviet Union was just the Russian Empire and Russia was by far the biggest part. Here that wouldn't at all be the case

California by itself would be a fine country.

So you’re suggesting that this would be a unilateral, simultaneous, immediate dissolution of all the states? I, too, am anticipating hell to freeze over.

The federal lands would be inherited by the last person to leave.

And at that point the seat would be lost.

Interestingly the violence by Spanish police has gotten a lot of coverage on the sources I've seen.

Tr you don't read well do you?

Either that or the District of Columbia holds the veto seat.

You don’t logic well. You’re over-optimistic about so many dumb and unrealistic variables. Play them out in your head a thousand times and look at every party’s genuine vested interest. Most groups will want unity, and actively seek to embarrass those that don’t. And they also would hold the most significant power to do so. It’s unrealistic in every conceivable reality.

Your goal would require a unanimous dissolution of all 50 US states plus territories, which would lead to wide scale landgrabbing and a large political role of military personnel to get up as much land as possible in the midst of the sudden lack of one. Partitioning that military isn’t going to happen. That’s a crisis of an even larger scale than the dissolution of the USSR.

It's hard to suggest that a poll conducted by activists with no participation by the other side, intentional disruption by authorities, no international observers, reports of irregularities, and the count in the control of a group of people advocating for a particular outcome. Hard to see how it can be viewed as an accurate polls. This isn't the kind of thing to base something major on something like that. It's maybeone step better than an internet poll

“California by itself would be a fine country”

LOL!!!!

God bless the internet. Just when you think you’ve read the dumbest thing possible a new winner comes to take its place.

Catalonia would do better as an independent nation than California.

I always love it when conservatives demonstrate precisely zero knowledge of the constitution. Please review Artivle V

And no, I don't think you understand politics very well. There is a reasonable chance that the mentioned blue states take a look at the state of the US and rightly conclude they want out. They propose an amendment

There is also solid political logic as to why the far right wing would love to kick the blue states out and have uniform and permanent political power in what's left. Since state legislatures and most republican members of congress are terrified of the right wing, it's entirely plausible that they'd vote in favor. It takes a two thirds majority lot of both bourse and three fourths of the states (38). Maybe Alabama would find that they desperately want to keep those Yankees and Californians in the union. Might be. Somehow I doubt it though.

It'd be interesting to watch

Hardly. California is the seventh largest economy in the world with a highly diverse economy. It's hard to see what countries are better set up for independence.

And they’ll always have tourism. That diverse economy is going to be getting considerably less less diverse, independence or not.

I’m a libertarian, not a conservative, and I agree that the constitution should be amended to create a legal process for it. But you’re overly optimistic about how well the results of secession would be.

Allowing that via constitutionally provided process doesn’t mean it will or should happen.

Tourism, agriculture, IT, healthcare, energy, entertainment, manufacturing, automotive, etc etc. yep. No diversity here

I was speaking in future tense. Tell me those industries are going to stay in California as prominent as they are now. Hell, some are increasingly leaving Cali as we speak.

Ogion, I always think about that '7th largeest economy' in the world thing, and know for a fact, that if California went it alone, or even without the 'red states' that would fall, very quickly.

They have 2 of the 3 largest ports in the country, but they import from China for the whole country My guess is that if California was not part of the rest of us, those shipments would not make it here. Also, many of those Tech companies who get the privilege of shipping thru the states without issue, would find things more difficult also.

You also have the largest poverty rate in America, or at least close to it. I think they were first as of 2016, at 20.6 (adjusted) and the national average is like 15.4 or something like that.


Much of California’s success is due to the benefits that come with being part of the United States, which are access to a common market, common currency, financial markets, resources, water rights, etc.

I think, depending on how California left, would also dictate how well they would be. I think they could do REALLY well, or they could do REALLY bad.

Example, if the rest of the country decided to cut California off from everything this way, would those Tech companies which account for a LARGE amount of the tax revenue in the state, stay there? And how about the Aerospace industry, which are Government contracts? would they also stay there? doubtful. Dont forget, you would probably have to pay for your own military there.

44% of California energy comes from natural gas, all except for 2% they get from 'red states' How would they replace that if California left on less than friendly terms?

If California goes in alone, it’s more likely that Tulsa would have a stranglehold on those industries than any part of California.

God, this is what I love about this debate. So much of what you all think about California is such utter bullshit. That's why red states will vote to have California and the other blue states leave, only to recognize that their economies would be screwed without the massive wealth transfers to them.

1) "Industries are leaving as we speak." Well, no. Calfornia was ninth in job creation in 2016. Yes, companies leave, but on net, California has net inmigration of businesses overall. We also create more businesses than just about any other state. We also have a modest net in migration from the rest of the US putting us in the low 20s in ranking of net in migration. Yes, around 10,000 businesses left the state between 2008 and 2015. Do you know how many SMALL businesses there are in California? 3.32 million. And that's just small businesses. Can you figure out what proportion of that total 1,250 businesses a year is? As our governor once said, it's barely a fart!

2) Shipping is less than 0.5% of the California economy. And they aren't making new Pacific ports to ship through. Of course you could send it through Portland, or Seattle/Tacoma, but they wouldn't be part of the US. I guess you have to send everything the canal or.... ship it through California.

3) We don't have the highest poverty rate in the country. Stop reading Breitbart! lol.
California's poverty rate average from 2014-2016 was 34th of 51 at 14.5%, compared to a national average of 13.7%. If you want a real outlier take a look at Mississippi at 20.8%, or Louisiana at 20.3%. Those are the highest.

4) Much of California's success is due to the fact that we have rational progressive policymaking, an emphasis on immigration and talent, and a highly developed entrepreneurial sector. The fact that we have a very tolerant society means we attract a LOT of creatives.

5) Yes, the tech sector is 8% of our GDP, it's true. It's also highly dependent on capital and technical talent. Remember those immigrants you all want to kick out and those creatives mentioned in #4? Without them, you ain't going to have a tech sector, sorry. Take Apple, 61% of their sales aren't even in the US. Would it matter much if the rest of the US also became a foreign country? Probably not. You folks will still want your iPhones. Unless we cut you off from all the technology and let you try to put together a modern economy based on the Oklahoma tech sector.... lol. the US would be reduced to writing with charcoal on shovels.

6) Well, Aeorspace are government contracts, but if we weren't in the US, the US government wouldn't be the only entity those guys could sell too. See also the need for an educated workforce, above.

6) Paying for our own military. Right. Have you forgotten who pays for the US military now? Imagine what we could afford if we weren't shipping billions of dollars off to red welfar states? That'd support as much of a military as we'd probably need.
Hell, we could probably fund it with taxes on the contracts the US would have to sign with our technology sector.

7) Energy. My favorite. Gas was 44% was in 2008. Today it's down to 36% actually, A sixth of that gas comes from in state sources (California is 2 % of the NATIONAL output). However, over that time, renewables more than doubled. The last natural gas plant has been built, in all likelihood. In fact, one was just rejected on Thursday, and another big one is going to be rejected next month. Yeah, by the time any secession happens, gas won't be an issue anymore. Want energy independence? Only renewables can deliver it for exactly that reason. HOwever, gas companies have to sell to someone, and they'll sell to California. They aren't state owned the way they are in Russia.

8) Tulsa? Oh, that's hilarious. In Oklahoma? Where a fifth of the adult population is functionally illiterate? It doesn't have the infrastructure, the capital, or the talent to maintain an economy, which is why California has to pay for its economy.

Thank you for demonstrating what I said about red state idiots thinking that California is horrible and voting to kick it out.

I forgot the financial stuff. Actually, that's probably the biggest one, because California is a finance powerhouse and that's much bigger than the tech sector. however, a lot of that banking is international (remember, we're on the Pacific Rim.)

Also, the 15 states I mentioned? We make up 45% of the US economy. So, yeah, we'll trade with them, Go ahead, cut off trade with us all and see what happens to your economy.

lol

“That's why red states will vote to have California and the other blue states leave, only to recognize that their economies would be screwed without the massive wealth transfers to them.”

Living in Oklahoma gave me perspective about how fucked every state would be without the union :)

Also yes Tulsa. With its established and growing tech industry and already formidable aerospace industry, it’s going to be on the rise in coming years. Just you wait.

More likely is most of Californian businesses relocate to Texas for better tax rates. It’s already happening.

Between legislators in Texas, California, and Oklahoma, the only ones I’d trust with a budget are the ones in Texas.