Most people outgrow black-and-white outlooks when they get older. You will too.

Ill take Ogions PHD over a bunch of wackos who jizz over Ayn Rand crap any day

"You Radical lefties have been censoring speech destroying buildings and attacking innocent people since November 9th 2016 but I never hear you guys call them out."

Yes, we do. But Fox News talking heads and Alex Jones don't actually say that. Where do you get your information?

Here's the thing: ANTI-FA only exists because FASCIST NEO-NAZI WHITE NATIONALISTS are trying to make their sick agenda part of the national dialog.

Get it? ANTI-FA. They oppose Fascists. If alt-right asshats weren't on the rise, anti-fa would not exist.

Trump enabled them. Trump does not make anything near a strong enough statement denouncing them.

This is what the neo-nazis at Charlottesville had to say about Trump's milquetoast response:

https://thinkprogress.org/white-supremacists-cheer-trumps-response-to-charlottesville-violence-3d0d50196c52/

Perhaps Trump is doing the United States a great service by allowing these racist cockroaches to feel like they can come out from whatever rocks they live under, so everyone else can see they still actually exist and do something about it.

And by *we do, I mean call out anti-fas who destroy shit.

Everyone on the political left sees conservatives as further right than the vast majority are. The reciprocal is also true. But to say that the sane people on either side do not denounce the radicals in their own camp is erroneous. And to address Trump's "lukewarm" or "milquetoast" denouncement: I believe it says a lot that there are those angry it was not forceful enough and so on, when we have seen what the prior eight years of racial division coming from an administration have caused. Yes, how dare he attempt to have an even disposition?? He is damned by the left regardless of his actions.

I am glad to see some forum moderation towards folks exposing violence. I'll leave it at that. Violence is not acceptable. Violence needs to be condemned on all sides.

Now, Ayn Rand is a great author. I own almost all of her books.

Also, conservatives and republicans by and large are not racist. We have a different worldview. I would think someone with a so-called PHD would understand that. It's hard to have a dialogue with some of you because your far-left anti-free speech rhetoric puts you in an ideological box. Just because someone someone is on the right does not mean they are evil. It simply means they view the world in a different way. We need to get back to being able to talk to one another. It's sad that some of you don't want to even attempt that.

Btw Antifa is a far-left, anarchist-communist group that should be labeled a domestic hate and terror organization. They are sickos. I hope the AG of the USA labels them a hate and terror group like the Weathermen Underground soon.

Jeff
Antifa is a hate group. They have attacked people because they think they are Trump supporters. They have destroyed buildings and rioted in the streets. They are a hate group. Both sides are at fault and both need to stop.
FYI I hate Alex Jones.

You lefties are so much against racism that it actually becomes racist. "Blacks need free tuition as an apology for slavery". Stop judging people on their skin tone but their character. Both the Radical Right and Left need to listen to Dr. King.

"If alt-right asshats weren't on the rise, anti-fa would not exist."

I very much doubt that. Most anti fascists I've had the misfortune of encountering are a bunch of thugs looking for a fight who have taken to attacking the far right as it gives their hate the veneer of legitimacy. If the fascists didn't exist they'd just choose a different target. I dare say there are a few decent souls in their ranks, but I'd avoid most of them as keenly as I'd avoid the fascists themselves.

Having said that I'm amazed that the US tolerates an armed protest by the far right in the middle of a city. An appreciation of free speech is admirable, but methinks there is a strong argument for debating quite where the lines are drawn. I find it hard to believe that a country that makes it illegal to cross a road outside of government approved areas can't take a more pragmatic approach to hate fuelled ranting.

And yes, Jeff is correct. You should check out some of the less than friendly responses those black block asshats got when they tried to go violent at BLM marches for example.

"we have seen what the prior eight years of racial division coming from an administration have caused"

It's because of total bullshit like this that show the lie in your statement. Funny how often conservatives say they aren't that far right or ideological cousins to the neo nazis and then immediately demonstrate that they are.

The only thing Obama did to sow "racial division" was to be black. That's it. He virtually never addressed issues of race and focused strongly on health care, economics and environmental issues. Indeed, many criticize that he didn't do enough to highlight racial issues during his administration.

The racial division came entirely from the Republicans who treated Obama with astonishing levels of disrespect because of his race, called him a "secret Kenyan muslim," engaged in birtherism, etc. If you needed any further evidence of how very very deep seated those attitudes are in the GOP, you need look no further than to the fact that out of a candidate of 17 of the strongest candidates for the GOP nomination ever, the GOP chose the #1 birther, Donald Trump, as standard bearer. He not only didn't hide his racism, but relished it and won hugely because of it. THERE is the evidence of how far right Republicans actually are.

Ogion:

Have you seen Get Out?

Prove your bullshit, Zach. What buildings are you talking about? Murrah federal office building? Or the Malheur wildlife refuge? Those buildings.

The Anti-fa aren't a hate group, because they aren't responding to a racial, religious or other group, they're responding to hate groups and their ideology. Frankly, at this point, the American people have had it with right wing bullshit, and you're not getting away with your racism and homoophobia anymore. Being anti-fascist is called "being a decent human being" The fact taht you provide cover for fascists with your false equivalence is horrible. The notion that you would invoke King, when you understand precisely nothing is beyond disgusting.

No, I haven't. That's a fictional thriller, right? Not especially relevant here.

"we have seen what the prior eight years of racial division coming from an administration have caused"

What did Obama actually *DO* that caused division? What it his genuinely inclusive rhetoric that attempted to touch all Americans, even those minorities traditionally given only lip service in speeches?

I can easily see the point that the States of America are less United than before he took office. I primarily see that as a function of antipathy toward Obama and Congress failing at their stated goal of "making Obama a one-term President" than anything he did himself.

@Ogion *Shakes Head*. If Obama was white and did everything that he did I would still not like him. This is what you are doing, The White Supremacists are bad and need to be stopped, the entire GOP are white supremacists.

Stop looking through your tiny keyhole of the world and open the door. I purposely listen to Left to understand what's going on with them.

Open the door Ogion and learn about the people who want a small government low taxes and a free market.

And Zach, we ARE judging you on the content of your character. Which explains why you are so upset about it.

I saw Get Out, by myself, in the hood of Richmond, CA. I was one of 2 white people in the audience. It was quite an experience.

Yeah, I opened the door and saw huge white supremacist rallies who went for Trump in droves and still support him in huge numbers.

Sure, there are a small number of such small government conservatives, but even most of them want small government as a reaction to government actions to help black people, end desegregation, and the like. Hell, you yourself pretty much just admitted that your complaint is that liberals want to address injustice.

So, yes, they exist, but scratch the surface of those guys and a large proportion of the time there's a white supremacist underneath. I came to that conclusion precisely by talking with conservatives. So, yeah, that dog won't hunt.

@Jeff Kuta

Just stop I can't listen to your progressive BS anymore. I am not racist or homophobic or xenophobic. But obviously that doesn't matter anymore? Because I support Trump.

I might as well say I am a proud deplorable because you don't seem to understand.

Why do you think people only voted for Trump because they are racist or islamophobic or a homophobe?

I understand it was a great movie. I almost never get to see movies in a theater. I saw arrival last year. I think that was it.

Ogion does need to open the door and learn about other people instead of sitting inside his so-called PHD ideological box. Listen to Dr. King Ogion you may learn something.

Hey Ogion, maybe JUST MAYBE people voted for Trump because he's a Washington Outsider! Or perhaps they are concerned about their jobs, or maybe the fact that he recognizes the small rural family that previous candidates ignored?

I see. You aren't racist, homophobic, or xenophobic, you just support politicians and policies who are. You don't seem to have any problem with being in a coalition with Neo Nazis or supporting an administration with neo nazis in high positions. Pardon me if I see that as a distinction without a difference. You're not a racist, but think that addressing past injustice is racist.

Riiight. I'm sorry, but you've pretty much proven that you are. We think that people voted for Trump because of his racism and islamophobia because so very, very, very often people explain their support in unequivocally racist terms. "Oh, I'm not a racist, I just voted for Trump because I don't think that government should help THOSE people."

I'm guessing you also supported Trump in the primaries?

And, yes, we understand your deplorableness and your proud embrace of your "heritage" perfectly well. Why do you think we have a dim view of you?

It's nearly impossible that people voted for Trump out of a concern for jobs or the economy, because Democrats BY FAR have the better record and better positions on both of those. If people say they voted for Trump because of his "outsider" (e.g., completely incompetent) status or because of jobs, they're either lying out their asses (mostly likely) or incomparably stupid (also a distinct possibility). Because when it comes to just about every last damn thing that helps the middle class, it's Democrats doing the work.

It's really hard not to have schadenfreude over these Trump supporters who are suddenly scared they'll lose their health insurance. Or the ones who are clamoring for help with the opioid epidemic, when it's bee Republicans who've always wanted to throw everyone in jail, eliminate social services, and deregulate drug companies. ALL of those are policies that make it worse.

No, the idea that people voted for Republicans on economic concerns is simply laughable. It's like saying people voted Sanders because they want complete dergulation of Wall Street. It's just not credible.

People like Ogion is the reason why Trump won and the reason why Republicans anyone center right will continue to win in mainstream America btw.

Nope I supported Huckabee than Rubio than finally Trump.

Show me a specific policy that Trump wants to enact that will hurt Black People.

"Just stop I can't listen to your progressive BS anymore. I am not racist or homophobic or xenophobic. But obviously that doesn't matter anymore? Because I support Trump.

I might as well say I am a proud deplorable because you don't seem to understand.

Why do you think people only voted for Trump because they are racist or islamophobic or a homophobe?"

Dude. I never said any of those things.

I did ask what specific acts Obama took that led to the US being more divided than ever.

You didn't even try to answer the question. That says a lot about the FEELINGS that conservatives have, probably exacerbated by hateful rhetoric from right-leaning fake news media, but zero about what actually happened.

That's called a reality bubble.

Still waiting for an answer...

And yes, I am *asking* because I want to understand, especially since I don't seem to...

Trump won mostly because he lied has ass off, and Hillary ran a shit campaign.

@Ogion

"Now I remember why I had you blocked"

because your support, advocate for and implement echo chambers?


"These are white supremacists because hey run around talking about how whites are better than everyone else. The guys shooting cops didn't do it out of some therapy that blacks are superior but out of anger at actual mistreatment by police."

and here's where the tricky word play comes in. The 5 police men he murdered, never did ANYTHING wrong. but when you have massive blocks of people chanting

"what do we want? dead cops!" or "pigs in a blanket fry em like bacon" along with a hundred other similar phrases, it's CERTAINLY not violent rhetoric.


"If you can't see that those are entirely different, then you've got problems. Furthermore your willingness to cover for the neo Nazis or pretend that fighting against police brutality is somehow equivalent to glorifying the Holocaust is rather telling"

more word play, more lies. FIGHTING AGAINST POLICE BRUTALITY AND MURDERING COPS ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

and i'm not "covering" for neonazis. i've had that accusation thrown at me, and it doesn't stick to well to someone who's Polish. I DESPISE neonazis, and i despise HYPOCRISY. you're guilty of the latter. you don't see the violence on your own side because you choose to be blind.



@MajorMitchell

"@ Ogion. Cheer up we're not all selfish idiots. Obviously, because sweetypie James is one of the very small number of cork brained clowns I've had muted for some time, I've missed a "contribution" from him that, judging by your reaction, was of absolutely NO WORTH AT ALL."

MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS MODS

remember when you silenced me for using "vitriolic language" the no cussing at people campaign, and banned that sort of thing from the forum? well, how about now?



@Ogion

"James is above all young. He is trying to think even if it goes awry at times. But he gets points from me for making the effort to think things through"

legitimate question, are you diagnosed with some form of narcissism. i mean, THAT is what you've gotten out of our conversations? holy shit man...




"Finally, I shouldn't be surprised to see how much conservatives leap to the defense of white supremacists. Sadly, it just confirms just how foundational racism is to conservative philosophy. Usually, it's better hidden than that, but this kind of incident shines a bright light on how much neonazis are ideological cousins to the GOP"

and the soviets were ideological cousins to modern socialists.

but we're not the same individuals, and i recognize that. what you fail to realize is that our ideological cousins, differ from us, and the ways they differ from us are in the violence and racism.


"And we lefties don't recognize the radical left because radical left hate terrorist ground basically don't exist. And yeah, your neonazi speech is going to meet with strong denounciation because it's what it deserves"

1. i don't think anyone not his thread ever said neonazis were good. seriously, look back over it.

2. no leftist terrorism?

reaction to the oscar grant shooting, riots and looting (because police brutality should be fought against... by looting black businesses?)

occupy wall st, with massive numbers of sexual assaults, rapes and destruction of property being recorded

oakland riots over george zimmerman. because attacking innocents is a good way to... fight... police brutality?

los angeles riots over george zimmerman... because, oh we just went over this.

numerous riots in ferguson,with numerous accounts of vandalism and looting to businesses.

riots in baltimore, with massive looting occurring. and vandalism. and burning cars.

the protests that shut down the chicago trump rally, with massive reported violence and arrests.

anti-trump activists pulling people from cars and attacking trump supporters ("they're white get em" was literally pulled from a video caught of part of this) after a trump rally

Milwaukee riots... burning cars, vandalism... HOW DOES ANY OF THIS STOP POLICE BRUTALITY?

riots in north caroline after keith scott incident, where once again, massive riots, state of emergency...

riots in portland, washington dc, uc berkley all would follow as well.


the far right nut jobs are not innocent, and should be held accountable, but to pretend the left doesn't act like terrorists... it's worse, they act in a state of nihilistic anarchy, burning down their neighbors businesses over any an everything.

i'll admit there's far fewer deaths involved, but the overall escalation of violence is not a partisan issue