Bump

It's odd to criticize Carthage for employing mercenaries when Rome when to war with Carthage in defense of the Mamertines. At any rate, Carthage was a first rate naval power which was on the brink of controlling the whole of Sicily (which was a dagger pointed at the throat of Rome) in addition to its strongholds in North Africa and Iberia. I don't know if they should get credit for the achievements of the Phoenicians as a whole, but if so they should also be credited for great advances in literacy, including most especially the alphabet which founded pretty much every written western language. Also Carthage wins points for having Hiero and consequently the great Archimedes help them defend against the Romans in Syracuse. The Latins can never be fully forgiven for stabbing him.

Much respect to the Olmecs also, in particular for their original use of zero, their religious monuments (without the use of wheel), and the solar calendar, but I think if Carthage hadn't been annihilated we would be talking much more about their achievements.

Vote: ## CAR

Let's not forget that the Olmecs created the building blocks for meso-American civs. Having in their time created; the first monoliths of the new world, a written language adapted by the Aztec, Maya, and Inca; a magnetic compass, and a irrigation and sewage system comparable to the Roman aqueducts.( their system of sewage was actually more similar to ours as it was based on laid pipe, in the form of u shaped stone that was then capped.

I wrote up a whole very long post and then lost it when I tried to post it. To dismayed to spend another 15 minutes re-writing

End result was, ##vote carthage

It is my personal opinion that while Carthage was a stronger civilization they were mainly using technology and culture developed by their predecessors. The Olmecs on the other hand were the originals of their hemisphere and influenced 3 additional civs. To me this is like comparing the very first computer ever to my iPhone. While my iPhone is significantly more powerful, the first computer is a marvel of engineering unparalleled by my phone as for its time it was more impressive than my phone is in its time.

Current: OLM (0) v Car (2)

My vote is for Carthage. Carthage was essentially the pinnacle of Phoenician civilization. It began as a small colony in the Western Mediterranean and ended as the last great Phoenician bastion in the world. After gaining independence from Tyre the city-state emerged as a major power in the Western Mediterranean that would rival Rome. The Empire expanded it's influence over the coasts of North Africa, Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily, and Spain. It was a commercial, maritime, superpower for the ancient world with a strong mercenary military system. Carthage ultimately lost the Punic Wars, but they had a chance during the Second Punic War after the Roman disaster at Cannae. If Hannibal had seized Rome after Cannae perhaps the war would have ended differently. Surely, Hannibal was the greatest military commander to ever test the Roman Republic. Let's not forget that Capua and Tarentum (two major Roman cities) defected to Carthage following the battle at Cannae. The Roman's had to develop the Fabian military strategy just to keep Hannibal at bay because they couldn't outright defeat him until Zama. In terms of military prowess Hannibal's Italian Campaign nearly ended the Roman Republic. Carthage was one of the great ancient Mediterranean civilizations and deserves to advance for its military, cultural, commercial, and maritime advancements. ##VOTE CARTHAGE

##VOTE Carthage

##vote Carthage

Carthage currently has 5 to the Olmecs 0

So that's a win?

Final: Carthage 5 v Olmec 0

Carthage progresses to GB3
Olmec progresses to GB4

Rome (ROM) v Kushan (KSN) starts now.

This round will be followed by our 4th of July Break.

Will Rome meet Carthage in GB3 or will the underdog Kushan's pull out an upset. Exciting stuff here, the round starts now!

##VOTE ROME

These civilizations have strangely similar fates. Decline beginning in the third century after major problems, a splitting of the empire, then invasions leading to the ultimate downfall, as well as wars with Persia causing turmoil. The Romans however have significant cultural advents thanks to the assimilation of different aspects of different cultures, as well as significant political and military advances.

Not to mention some of the best literature of history.

##vote Rome

##VOTE ROME

##vote rome

##vote not rome

# Votus forus Rome

Current: ROM 6 v KSN 0

I'm going to argue here that most people are voting ROM out of a pop culture bias.

## Vote KSN

A difficult draw. I'm voting Kushan mainly to draw attention to its achievements and raise interest in the oft overlooked state.

Examples of artistic achievement under Kanishka

https://www.britannica.com/art/Gandhara-art

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mathura-art

Kushan governed considerable territory in South & Central Asia, covering the Aral Sea area, Kashmir, portions of current-day India, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, and western China. Its cosmopolitan capital was in Peshawar, controlling many urban areas and important trade routes. Its (gold) coinage has been found all over Asia. Kushan was the first Buddhist empire, although religiously it was both very diverse and tolerant, with Iranic, Greek, Chinese and Indian beliefs widespread. Kanishka, the most well known of the Kushan rulers, held a Buddhist Council of Sarvastivadin monks in which the Mahayana doctrines became ascendant. It is believed the Kushans created some of the earliest depictions of both Buddha and the boddhisatvas. Architecturally the Kushans created massive stupas and shrines, including a particularly massive 638 foot shrine in Peshawar, whose dome was covered with gilded copper umbrellas.

##vote kushan

I voted not Rome, CB.

I want some arguments from the ROM side why exactly ROM deserves this vote over KSN. (Remember I am GMing this so I am trying to get you all talking)

Rome endured through ages, almost a millennium longer than the Kushan, and the Empire alone also lasted longer. Rome also considerably popularized Christianity by making it the state religion, which would go on to become the world's largest religion, arguably by the influence of Rome itself. In terms of politics, the popularization of the Republic in the modern world more resembles the Roman model than Athenian democracy, another hand Rome arguably plays on the world today. Rome also demonstrated a considerable finesse with its military, providing considerable innovations and adaptations to become the dominant Mediterranean power. They also had some of the most longlasting architecture of history, and some of the most noteworthy literature in the world.

So, based on the criteria I laid out before, this is why I'm voting Rome

1) Territorial conquest/political sway: Draw

Rome will win this category over almost every other Ancient Civilization. They conquered more areas than almost any other civilization up until that point (with the possible exceptions of Persia and Han China). And Rome's political influence extended beyond its boundaries. That being said, the Kushan conquered the entirety of its kingdom. First knocking out the Hellenic states in Bactria, then Sythian tribes, and conquering into India and China; both of the latter being very hard to do. So for that, I will give them a huge amount of credit, and call it a draw.

2) Artistic achievements: Draw

I'm going to give the Kushan a bit of leeway here. Both of these cultures' art was heavily influenced by other cultures. For the Romans, it was the Greeks. For Kushan, it was a mixture of Greek, Indian and Chinese. Rome produced a whole lot more, but I won't reward quantity over quality, for now.

3) Scientific achievements: Point Rome

This one definitely has to go to Rome. I went through the whole wiki for Kushan, and it mentioned no scientific achievements of note. Meanwhile we still can't make concrete as strong as the Romans did. Plus the impressive aqueduct systems and other engineering feets the Romans did.

4) Size/longevity: Point Rome

Rome was bigger. Rome lasted longer. It was one of the major powers Kushan was sandwiched inbetween.

5) Lasting impact on the world: Point Rome

A bit arbitrary, but the area Kushan controlled was impacted more by other empires (Mughal, Mongol, etc) than it. Rome had the undeniably greatest impact over the vast areas it controlled. Be it language, religion, architecture, etc. So much of modern Europe is descended from Rome

6) Notable historic figures: Point Rome

There's literally too many to count.

End results 4-0-2 in favor of Rome. So I voted Rome. For what its worth, my vote for Carthage was the result of personal preference after they went 2-2-2.