Jamie, why can't pro-life be feminist? Why do you get to define what is "a *fundamental* point within feminism?" If you disagree how on, say, positive action for minorities, does that automatically make you a racist? You are using *huge* generalizations, that everyone who wants females to be treated equally to males HAS to support abortion.

Three simple counter examples that disprove the patriarchy hypothesis.

1. Research shows that men are about as likely to be victims of domestic violence as women. Yet almost all resources in helping victims is directed towards female victims. Male victims are instead ridiculed and not taken seriously both by society in general as well as by law enforcement personnel. Apparently, female victims are deserving of help and sympathy while male victims are deserving of shame and ridicule. Such is quite contrary to the hypothesis that women are being oppressed.

2. Men receive on average higher sentences for equal crimes. Yet if the patriarchy hypothesis were true you would instead expect women to get the higher sentences.

3. Men are far more likely to die while doing their job, because when it comes to doing dangerous jobs, women are quite happy to bail out. If the patriarchy hypothesis were true you would instead expect men to force the women to do the dangerous jobs.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there are no areas of society were men are better off than women. However, there are also many areas where it is the other way around. The patriarchy hypothesis just can't be convincingly argued for by cherry picking the first kind of areas while ignoring the second. You instead have to evaluate the overall balance of burdens and benefits for both genders. Of course, such analysis doesn't lend itself for the one-liners of frantic feminist propaganda. Even worse, it would debunk the entire patriarchy hypothesis.

1. Domestic abuse is horrible and not limited to women, yes. Male victims often don't get treated nearly as seriously. This is because women are viewed as fragile.

2. Again, women are viewed as fragile. Nothing more to say.

3. Oh yeah, turns out women are viewed as fragile. There are plenty that would happily do those dangerous jobs but can't, because society stops them.

The view of women as emotionally and physically fragile is somewhat condescending, actually.

You speak of the "balance of burdens". Are they truly balanced? I think it's severely tilted in favor of men. Thus, the patriarchy exists. After all, what burdens do men hold that they haven't thrust upon themselves? Maybe your first point? Maybe?

Cyrus - not disagreeing or agreeing could you explain the statement though please

"that everyone who wants females to be treated equally to males HAS to support abortion."

Phil - Well done for bringing calm reason to a WebDip debate.

I'm glad I was completely forced into a corner with my comment, thanks for being understanding guys.
But yes, the point of my previous comment was to suggest that abortion is something that should be discussed by the couple in question. Because it is her body, but isn't it also his child?*
When it comes to feminism or dealing with feminists, as many of my college mates are, when it comes to the decision of "pro-choice" their opinions are interpreted as hypocritical.
For example, I've been with the women I love for five years, we went to high school together and almost became married but I told her to get an education first. After we finish college we plan to get married and start making a family, with her electing to stay at home as a full time mom until the children can be sent to school. The first problem most of the feminists I talk to have, is that they criticize her for "limiting" herself by staying home as a mother. Not only that, repetitively they have tried to get her to go out with other guys because, once again, she is "limiting" herself to me.**

Finally, the biggest problem I have with feminism is in the united states military. A Man has to shave his head, pass physical examinations that are easily more vigorous then a Woman and yet they want equal pay. I am all for women being treated as men's equal, on a civil, societal, and economic basis. But, if Men go through more rigorous training then women is that not inequality in favor of women? and if so, why do they not speak up about it?**

ANimac, I was responding to Putin's earlier assertions, and Jamie's, that anyone against abortion was not a feminist.

As per Jamie's request, I am gathering definitions:
Wikipedia: Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, cultural, and social rights for women.

Merriam-Webster: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

Oxford: The advocacy of women’s rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Happy? So, the *common* definition is one of gender equality. Now, can we disagree about what is "equal?" I think we can. For one, equality=/=sameness. Equality does not mean we should all be treated literally the same way. Your idea of equality might differ slightly from my idea of equality. Therefore, you can not define your concept of equality to be the only one, and therefore cannot say it is the only possible feminist view. If we both seek the equal treatment of men and women, we are feminists. Even if we disagree on how that should be done.

Responding to Phil, a Woman is not as strong as Man.
That's just how nature intended it to be. I don't feel like a sexist, I've hired several females for tiling and electrical work. Women just don't have that upper body strength like men do.
What they do have is stamina and finer motor skills which I believe makes up for the lack of upper body strength.

They may in general have lower upper body strength, but that is at best loosely associated with being fragile or any of that other stuff. Meanwhile, most of this stuff is done because women are viewed as fragile. Since they are not intrinsically so, I view it as condescending to view them as intrinsically less "tough". That is what my point was.

"a Woman is not as strong as Man."

This is true for the average of the entire human race, and the difference is significant. But the distribution curves are so closely aligned, that it is ridiculous to use as comparison of any woman over any man.

@oscar: you seem to think that patriarchy implies that evil men _consciously_ set out to keep women down. This is not the case. Partiarchy is the word used for the overall culture and expectation that men "just" earn more money etc. Personally, I don't like the term patriarchy at all. It creates a faux conflict.

Then by that logic I agree with you completely, both Men and Women are (duh, don't be an ass about this) are humans, and humans are pretty damn tough regardless of gender. Go look at the pain center of the brain during pregnancy, its amazing the kind of tenacity that humans can endure
Digressing from that point, most of the inequality portrayed is mired from past prejudice's, the sooner we detracted from that point the better. "But, the family can be quite a bitch"

Responding to the MinisterOfWar, during my time in the military our company was coEd. And when it came time to pull bodies, or triage? It took two women to carry their comrade (Sack included), while me and my friends? (all 145-180lbs) Hell, we carried each other all day. That's not the only example, changing combat treads, or doing vehicle maintenance. They just couldn't keep up with us, until it came time to shoot or do gun maintenance. Women easily outshoot men, but again they have finer motor skills.
We're just different, physically we will never be equal. But is that such a bad thing?

@ KingCyrus: "Jamie, why can't pro-life be feminist?"

I've explained why, but let me try again:

It's because you can't be pro-life without holding the position that you have the right to tell women what to do with their bodies. That is an *intrinsically* anti-feminist stance.

"Why do you get to define what is "a *fundamental* point within feminism?"

I don't. This is not about me making some arbitrary decision. Every single woman that I have ever encountered, who identifies as a feminist, (which is several hundred women), would take this position. This is not about me.


@ Oscar:

"Research shows that men are about as likely to be victims of domestic violence as women."

Bullshit. Cite your evidence.

I'll give you mine: According to the most recent National Crime Survey for England & Wales, 31% of women have experienced domestic abuse, compared to 18% of men. In the same survey, 20% of women were reported to have experienced a sexual assault (including attempts), compared to only 3% of men.

@Jamiet,

I still disagree. I know many women who identify as feminists (if you phrased it as above, ie. equality) who ARE pro-life. But, I guess we come from very different places and cultures. Mind you, I am not excluding the women you know as feminists, just rejecting the idea that feminists *have* to be pro-choice. Since this isn't a thread about whether it is right or not. I believe that most pro-lifers argue from a standpoint that it isn't the woman's body, it is the baby's. But this really isn't about that.

Summary: A woman who believes that a fetus is not her body, and therefore that it would be immoral to abort, CAN be a feminist by still supporting the equal treatment of women.

@ KingCyrus: As you say, we may come from different places and cultures. While I shall continue to fundamentally disagree with you, and would find it hard to accept anti-choice as a feminist position, I must concede that you argue your own position most eloquently, and I have to say, I respect that.

http://www.gargaro.com/lifefem.html

To back up Cyrus' point.

Then there is the neglected issue of sex-selective abortions. Some even go so far as to describe this as gendercide.

''The European Commissioner responsible for Employment and Social Affairs has quoted unofficial United Nations calculations that “estimate that 200 million females are missing in the world; women who should have been born or grown up, but were killed by infanticide or selective abortion”

Grech, V., & Mamo, J. (2014). Gendercide–a review of the missing women. Malta Medical Journal, 26(01).

A feminist issue, if ever there was one.

Jamiet99UK - I don't understand your reasoning about why pro-lifers can't be feminist. Unless you take view that abortion should never happen or a woman should be allowed to abort up to the actual birth, then abortion time limits should be set by society generally by elected representatives. As long as males and females have the same right to stand for election, and to vote, I think it is right and proper that all opinions about abortion are heard and a decision made, by all elected representative. If some women choose the pro-life side of the arguement, that's fine by me, I don't see that as being hypercritical or anti-feminist. In the same way I would like everyone's opinion on FGM and male circumcision heard.

My first reaction is AAAAAAAAA.

My second reaction is: Why? I believe it is your right to do stuff with your genitals. I don't see myself wanting to do it anytime soon, though.

As for abortion, I defer to those actually carrying the baby.

#DiploGate

Dear chauvinists,

It's time to dispense with the idea that only by being literally the same can two parties be equal. Of course no two parties are ever exactly the same, rendering this narrow sense of equality absurd, and meaningless. It is not and never has been what is meant by equality.

Rather, the differences among different humans and indeed different objects are belied by what unites them - a true equality, an equipollence, a polarity. You may be good at one thing but you are poor at another. There is nothing mundane, nothing useless, nothing exceptional, nothing extraordinary. All that exists, simply is, and there is no more important measure of equality than that.

Great. You and your Marine Todd buddies can lift heavy shit. We don't care. Treat women like human beings and get with the times.

Patriarchal societies don't punish women more. They wouldn't want to. They punish women less so that the women see and understand they have a "special status" in society which they would want to protect--if they play by the rules created by men.

If you're more concerned about the rights of an unborn fetus than you are about a born female, you are a fetusist, and not a feminist.

By the way Thucy, Army all the way. I treat a woman the same way I treat a man, if not better so tell me is that still sexism?

And what about the male who impregnated the female? Does he not get a say in what happens to the being he created?

Answer that one first Kargo. ;)

phil: "The view of women as emotionally and physically fragile is somewhat condescending, actually."

That may be the case but it is nonetheless a significant source of some very relevant female privileges. You know, the kind that deal in life and death. When lives need saving the maxim "women and children first" is well accepted. It's a strange oppressor that would save the oppressed before himself. Do you also expect that white supremacists would try to save black people before whites? No, of course they wouldn't.

Really, phil, you may consider this view of women as fragile a condescending one, and in fact to a large extent I can agree with you there. That's irrelevant though. If you look at the actions and policies that are derived from this view, they simply do not fit a hypothesis of a patriarchy oppressing women. Instead they illustrate a large societal pressure on men to protect and save women from harm, even at their own peril.

me: "Research shows that men are about as likely to be victims of domestic violence as women."

Jamiet: "Bullshit. Cite your evidence."

http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/men-the-overlooked-victims-of-domestic-violence/

According to the CDC 40% of domestic violence victims in 2010 where male. In addition, according to another study, 63% of male victims as opposed to 15% of female victims had a deadly weapon used against them. Overall these statistics seem to pretty much even out I would say. They definitely don't support the hypothesis that men are the predominant perpetrators while women are the predominant victims.

Also: http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

"SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600."

Nonetheless women are perceived as the predominant victims and as a result almost all help for domestic violence victims is directed at women, while male victims instead just receive a lot of ridicule. In feminist lingo you would call this a clear example of female privilege.

Jeff, my answer to that is that the male in the case of abortion is completely unrecognized which I find very disturbing because as far as biology goes, the fetus is as much the woman's as it is the male's. Yet the males opinion is almost always ignored.

Just sayin':
"Bioethicist Jacob Appel has pointed out that “if one grants a man veto power over a woman’s choice to have an abortion in cases where he is willing to pay for the child, why not grant him the right to demand an abortion where he is unwilling to provide for the child?"