I meant to write "stay-at-home mother".

There are fewer barriers to women *entering* engineering or other STEM fields today, yes. But there were barriers to women succeeding and advancing in male-dominated and highly sexist fields of work in the past, not to mention derision directed at women that wanted to pursue STEM education which still exists in some quarters. This has resulted in fewer experienced women, and fewer women able to apply for experienced positions, and less women being able to ever get that experience.

That creates a vicious cycle of more women "choosing" to stay at home because they hit a glass ceiling in their career. Things are better today than they ever have been in the last 6 decades, but I'm not exactly ready to wave around a "Mission Accomplished!" banner just yet.

@krellin: "Stackable - good god you are a fucking moron. It wasn't "systematic discrimination"...it was THE CHOICE OF WOMEN NOT TO GO IN TO B-SCHOOL OR ENGINEERING. Instead, they made *other* lifestyle choices...education, which is heavily skewed towards women; nursing, which is heavily skewed towards women; "homemaker" - RAISING THE NEXT GENERATION OF HUMAN BEINGS - A NOBLE PROFESSION - heavily skewed towards women."

In the 1960s and 1970s, a woman who wanted to be an engineer or a computer scientist would literally have been laughed out of most rooms. Many of these women simply became math teachers instead, because they couldn't pursue an engineering education. No barriers my ass.

And yeah, it's not the 1960s or 1970s anymore. But the legacy of these barriers still lives, and it takes time for a real adjustment to occur.

krellin, you're impossible to talk to. Any evidence of a "barrier" is in your view just evidence of women making a different choice. You know you're ideologically implacable when your opinion cannot be changed by any evidence.

DENY WOMEN THEIR CHOICES!! FORCE EQUAL OUTCOMES!!! WOMEN ARE CHOOSING THE WRONG CAREERS AND LIFESTYLES!!!!

FUCK WOMEN, THEY ARE TOO STUPID TO MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICES TO PLEASE NOBLE WHITE MALE LIBERAL STATISTICIANS!!

STUPID WOMEN!! WHO THE FUCK DO THEY THINK THEY ARE CHOOSING HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIVES???

Christ, where on earth have I said that? You're debating some phantom Liberal White Guy, not this not-white guy...

FIRE 46% OF ALL CEO'S BECAUSE THEY HAVE DICKS! THEY ARE UNEQUAL TO WOMEN, WHO ARE SUPERIOR AND CAN RUN COMAPNIES BETTER BECAUSE THEY HAVE VAGINAS.

PROMOTE WOMEN ARTIFICIALLY TO 46% OF CEO POSITIONS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE NOT TRYING FOR THE JOBS AND DO NOT HAVE THE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE OF THE MEN CURRENTLY HOLDING THE JOBS.

DAMN THOSE STUPID WOMEN! DAMN THEM FOR GOING INTO THE PROFESSIONS THEY WANTED IN THE PAST!!!

Stack: save your breath/time... I've come to realize (only too late) that the people you're talking to have no understanding of how historical and cultural conditioning works, of how traditions effectively shape our values, and of how historical dynamics of change work.

You could tell them that we're still sensitive about certain words, like nigger, even if slavery has officially ended more than a 100 years ago, even if Rosa Parks did her bit almost 50 years ago, and how that shows that racism is still effectively shaping our communities and the ways we see each other, they still wouldn't get it.

Hopeless.
And, ironically, those are EXACTLY the kind of (resisting) individuals responsible for how slow historical dynamics are. Their blind faith in their superiority vis-à-vis their predecessors leaves them unable to see the prejudices that still attach to their world views.

krellin, you're a fucking nutter. I've been saying two concrete points:

1. There is still sexism in the United States, although less than it used to be. (At least for white women).
2. The USA should have mandated maternity leave.

That's it.

Yep. krellin is an uncritical asshole, and far too many uncritical assholes make everyone's lives and society as a whole much shittier than it has to be.

Yes... sadly... And while we can't mute the fuckers out there, we can do so here.

If I was Christian, or religious at all, I'd say: Amen!

I've found that, in person, it is easier to convince people to be reasonable. But online, krellin can just jump the shark (even by his standards) and start typing unrelated gibberish in all caps, which I interpret to be his version of, "EQUALITY? DOES NOT COMPUTE."

Ihave a feeling Krellin is exactly like this in reality...lol

Krellin of course women shouldn't be forced too do things, it's just society conditions them to not want to and encourages them to be in many was 'the second sex', in what is quite a patriarchical society - that's what's wrong. that and the fact that some women honestly won't be hired because they are women and people are scared of maternity leave

Dudes! Don't use words that have more than 2 or 3 syllables and/or possibly more than just a literal meaning.

As Stack said: CAN'T COMPUTE!

"Women are conditioned"....yes, we program our women to be subserviant little baby making sluts.

Funny, ask any homosexual out there why he likes the things he likes, and he'll say he was born that way.

But a woman...if she *wants* to stay home and have a baby and raise it, she's just a victim of those god-damned men out there.

You fucktards can't have it both ways. NOT ALL WOMEN WANT TO RULE THE WORLD. Not all women want to work...in fact, most women I know work from necessity to pay the bills, not because they want to. but I supposed wanting to stay home with kids and your friends is just evil twisted brainwashing.

Let's see....guys acting effiminate, not liking sports, enjoying a good round of pole-smoking, etc is NATURE.

But if a woman is predisposed likes towards certain career choices (services, "caring" careers like nursing or education), or a women is not competitive and doesn't want to rule a coporation, etc....it's because she's been brainwashed by the evil men, and it's all NURTURE.

Fags are natural.
Fems are brainwashed.

I think I'm starting to understand the Noble White Liberal Male a little better now.

If you gaze in to your mirror at your new androgenous haircut and dream about the world your would love where everyone is *vunerable* and soft and pretty...anyone that acts this way must be a naturally expressed human being.

Anything that goes against your fantasy...say, a world in which a woman is more feminine that you...this is evil brainwashing.

I get it.

krellin, it would be faster if you just kept the same post on copy and paste, instead of pretending to read what others write.

1. Corporations exist to make money, not provide maternity leave.

2. Sexism will exists even if women hold 50% of teh CEO positions. It doesn't matter what happens in teh world, sexism and racism will always exist. OUT CURRENT LEGAL STRUCTURE FORBIDS THIS TO BE USED IN DECISION MAKING. therefore, we have done all we can do legally. Whether you are too stupid or blind or what to grasp it, attitudes ARE CHANGING....women are in B-School more than ever, etc...meaning that DOWN THE ROAD when there are more of them in the work place, the QUOTAS you are watching will become filled. Social change doesn't take place overnight for instuitions - business - that require EXPERIENCE. If there are relics of sexism and bigotry at the tops of corporations, unless they commit illegal activities, there is *nothing* you can do about it except for wait for them to die. Sorry...that's just reality.

Why can't you be happy that *all* of the trends in society point to the fact that our generations and younger ARE doing the right thing?

but even at that...NOT ALL WOMEN WANT TO DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO....and if you look at the collective rhetoric of all you SEXIST BIGOPTED liberals, your idea of perfectionIs not women making choices, it is women making the choices YOU WANT THEM TO MAKE to fill YOUR quotas.

Regarding the idea that women are “brainwashed” by our society, or however you want to put it….it most women are happy…and most women I know ARE happy when they are not working…why does that piss you off so much? You truly are NOT looking for women to be happy…you are actually looking for women to fulfill YOUR idea of what makes women happy, which to the Noble White Male Liberal is full female employment, children raised by the state, women being equally and aggressively competitive in the office, etc….in other words, you are not happy until gender roles are obliterated….it is the overwhelming idea behind every complaint you make whether or not you have the intellectual capacity to acknowledge what you are demanding.

Sexist, bigoted brainwashing liberals….

Oh yes stackable...because in your diatribes and cach, etc, you say something new every time....lol

I'm sorry, your liberal brainwashing doesn't work on me. I make my own choices, thank you very much. Just as intelligent women do.

Thanks, krellin. And as a professional who works in international finance, I had no idea corporations exist to make money.

I also had no idea laws against discrimination worked with 100% success.

Your insights are enlightening. Do you have any more?

Oh, I guess one more serious thought:

"attitudes ARE CHANGING....women are in B-School more than ever, etc...meaning that DOWN THE ROAD when there are more of them in the work place, the QUOTAS you are watching will become filled. Social change doesn't take place overnight for instuitions - business - that require EXPERIENCE. If there are relics of sexism and bigotry at the tops of corporations, unless they commit illegal activities, there is *nothing* you can do about it except for wait for them to die. Sorry...that's just reality."

Well, no. There isn't "nothing" I can do. I voice my opinion, hope it is heard, hope other men who, like me may work in male-dominated positions and dislike the latent sexism that permeates corporate culture, also take up that charge. And that's what I do.

"Well, no. There isn't "nothing" I can do. I voice my opinion, hope it is heard..."

Or more to the point, a government can apply laws to make the change-over profitable - fines for companies who refuse to comply and/or tax breaks for those who do.

There is everything you can do as a state to encourage whatever policy it wants to enact the 'will of the people'.

Sure, and maternity leave is probably the big one there. Denying paid maternity leave is deeply unfair and disproportionately places the burden of having a family on women over men.

But bigger changes come from social norms - from people writ large no longer internalizing views that "leadership," "innovation," etc., are all "masculine" characteristics. And on that point, everyone who speaks out makes as big a difference as any law can.

Stackabutt - NO LAW is 100% effective...that is why we have jails and legal system, dumbass. But as a society, we have done *exactly* what needs to be done -- we have said it is illegal to descriminate in the work place, to sexually harass people, etc....and if you take your case to court, the women often win.

What you want is not a workplace with equal opportunity...what LIBERALS want is to put your perverted ideology for what LIBERALS think women should do with their life in to the education system and my home. LIBERALS want to ENFORCE THEIR personal morality...that women should work in absolutely equal numbers to men in exactly the same professions; that women that CHOOSE to stay home and have a baby are inferior, etc. You don't every truly ask are women happy...you simply point to statistics and impose YOUR morality on them and decide what is right and wrong for all.

My Mother worked about 20% of her work life that she could work. The rest of the time was at home...and she was happy as cojuld be with that freedom.

You know, I've already posted three or four times that I don't think absolutely equal numbers is necessary for me to be convinced that we've got a level playing field. Are you reading anything I write?

"most women I know work from necessity to pay the bills, not because they want to."

Most men I know work from necessity to pay the bills, not because they want to. I'd much rather just be independently wealthy and travel and enjoy life than work 5 days a week, 8-10 hours per day.

Ugh.. can someone go through and make a list for me I'm too lazy to compile it

All traffic wardens, bankers,
Men who sell Venetian blinds
All advertising chappies
And Australians of all kinds
And nasty little editors whose papers are the pits
Who fill their rags with gossip
And huge and floppy... ritz.
And girls who sell the stories
Of the Tories they have kissed
But you must have got the gist
'Cause none of them be missed

He's got them on the list
He's got them on the list
And then none of them be missed
And none of them be missed

krellin, i'm not saying that nothing is natural, but when girls are bought kitchens as a child, have their heroes being women waiting for their prince etc. this influences them. but whatevs.