MANIAC REREAD (with my comments prefaced with >>, Maniac please answer those questions thanks)
pg5 - HASHTAGOCTOTHORPEvote Espi
Obvious scum is scum. I only wish that Ghug hadn't highlighted everyone to what I consider to be a scumslip so early. (The use of the word 'rest'). Highlighting it means that his scum mates will surely bus him, which makes analysising the D1 vote hard.”
“@ghug - I'd bus Espi right now if I was Mafia.
@Bo you're suggesting Espi is scum and I'm his scum buddy using my only post to coach the remaining scum buddy to bus him? It's possible I suppose, but unlikely mafia Maniac would be that bad. I wouldn't be disappointed if scum did bus Espi (assuming Espi is scum). Even though it makes analysising d1 vote harder. Better to have dead scum with no lead, than kill a townie.”
pg6 - “@vecna - mafia are advised in their PM who their scum buddies are”
“@Bo - sometimes town and mafia optimum strategies converge making it hard for us to analyse the vote. I think on the evidence presented so far, town should be looking to lynch espi and as I've already stated mafia would probably be looking to bus him. Whilst that makes analysis of d1 difficult, I'd take that any day if our prize is lynching scum.
I wasn't encouraging mafia to bus but I wouldn't be disappointed if they viewed it that way. As stated above if they do bus and that clouds the result, then so be it. That would still be a good result for town.”
>>@Maniac - how are you so sure that Espi is scum that you think mafia will have to bus them! It was PAGE SIX! Considering that you later tell Wjessop something about how he can’t be that confident in his reads around PAGE TWENTY or smth this is kind of scummy.
“Just on the fake claiming debate, I've done it more than once with mixed results. In this set-up I can't see how fake claiming could help. If someone fake claims and then cop either reveals or dies, we have to lynch the fake-claimer. This just wastes another day and in this set-up days are limited. I'd urge you all not to fake claim even if you're about to be lynched.”
pg8 - “Espi - I'm not sure if you have a bizarre writing style or you're scum. Comments like "I am also a bit worried your bus statement might have scared mafia away from voting for me, but I could be wrong." - Why would townie be scared that some comments are scaring mafia away from voting for them? I just don't get it. If you are scum, I'm not concerned that you only have three votes so far - it's still early.” “Bo to Espi "I'm not mafia, so we're not partners" this comment seems to belie knowledge rather than suspicion. If we lynch Espi and he does flip scum this could point to Bo being his partner.” “Wjessop "ghug -- my strongest town read so far; ghug has been visible throughout the game and has pushed various different players with his usual aggressive, interrogative style" - really? I must be reading a different thread.”
pg16 - “@DL - please stop posting the same crap, either your own crap or someone else's and forcing us all to read the same crap twice.” “For some reason I always view yoyo as somebody who uses a yoyo as a karate kid would use nunchucks. @Yoyo - have you ever done kung-fu?” “@ND - I like your case concerning WJessop” “@ghug & Bo - yes I am less active than in previous games and you each receive a spotters' badge for noticing. (Spotters' badges have no intrinsic value and can't be exchanged for air-miles).” “@DL - re: your point about fake-claiming on steps of gallows to 'force' mafia to nightkill you. The problem with this is it sets up a whole host of WIFOM arguements the following day if the fake-claimer isn't nightkilled. Some will argue that a living fake-claimer 'must' be scum because otherwise mafia would surely have killed him. Mafia could assume fake claim is fake and set up a lynch following day on fake-claimer wasting another lynch. if your town, we should not be fake-claiming.”
(following a textwall of quotes)
pg16 - “If Bo thinks Espi is a good candidate, he should be voting for him now. If Espi vote is unanimous it might not give us much intel, but by Bo’s own admission lynching a lurker wouldn’t give us any info. This post sets out to defend Espi, pure and simple. Usually I think scum distance themselves from obvious scum and/or bus them, but I think mafia Bo is setting himself up for the ‘why would I defend him’ defence later on.
In the last game y2k made a huge error in scum reading toemato and linking me to Toemato and then calling for my lynch before Temato had flipped. We should always lynch our biggest scum read and then work on info that provides without second guesing the result.
The rest of Bo’s post on Pg 11 (I invite you to read it all) goes on about LURKERS and selecting candidates from that list.
I think both Bo and Espi are scum and they are trying to find another target to divert lynch away from Espi. It is straight out of the mafia playbook that when attacked, try to find another candidate and it is too easy for scum to go for the ‘let’s lynch a LURKER’ play. If I’m right about Espi and Bo’s preoccupation with LURKERS, then it soft clears our traditional lurkers, CaptJeff and Guak as I don’t think mafia Espi and mafia Bo would play the ‘let’s lynch a LURKER’ card if CaptJeff or guak are the third scum.
>>@Maniac - It’s not like Bo has been proposing this numerous times before, right? Wait...also, you seem to suggest that Bo and Espi are coordinating an attack on lurkers, which is quite silly.
More to follow, but I have to shoot out to business meeting which I’m already late for. I’m also busy this evening but hope to be back on before deadline. In meantime I’d encourage you all to vote Espi, I’m really confident we have caught him and need to hang him now. I’m also fairly confident about Bo, but a lot of that case rests on the espi flip so we need to know about Espi first. If Espi flips scum I’m be tempted not to scan Bo and lynch him anyway and use scan elsewhere.
Laters…”
pg20: “I only have 5mins - but need to point out a couple of things particularly about Bo. He has said outright that he thinks Espi is scum but won't vote for him! This is him hedging - if we lynch Espi he can say he was behind lynch in principle and if we don't his scum buddy gets off for 1 more day. Bo has also lied saying I lurked when I was scum. I never lurk, sometimes work and stuff gets in the way but I never lurk. Both Bo and Espi were keen to lurch lurkers and now they are both keen on me. I'm far from biggest lurker, they just see me as the not Espi alternative.
I really don't mind being lynched (this game came at bad time) if you guys promise me that when I flip town you lynch, Espi and if he flips scum, then lynch Bo.
Also don't worry about blood wolf been modkilled. It makes no difference to our chances and accually helps us narrow down suspects.”
pg24 - “At his is tough...a couple of things Espi has done in last few pages have made me question my read on him big time.
I don't have any scum reads on anyone else, but feel I need to give Espi a break
vote ND”
>>@Maniac - so you just flipped off Espi around EOD, voted for the counterwagon, and then disappeared? Scummy.
pg25 - “And the victim Blamers get in early and y2k makes me the only night kill - cheers y2k, even when you're GM you tunnel on me lol”
>>@Maniac - Explain why you viewed the “ND sucks” post as a string of “victim blaming” right after EOD after you’d been absent for most of it?
pg26 - “@dl- yes, I'm struggling for time and wouldn't have been unhappy if I drew the Nk bullet.”
pg28 - “Wjessop your system for dividing players into categories has no merit and even if it did it couldn't help us.
@guak - I became less convinced about Espi because of two things, first his switch off me when he was the opposing candidate gave me the feeling he was scum hunting rather than just trying to save himself. If he was scum I think staying on me and hoping town or his scum buddies pushing me over the line was the correct Mafia Espi move. And also he said he contacted blood wolf via pm. Blood wolf didn't contribute at all, but I think a noob Mafia playing scum participates so I had blood wolf as town ( which is now of course confirmed). Why would Mafia Espi contact town blood wolf to get him to contribute? I know bloodwolf's death doesn't really affect town and you could argue that extra town death is actually anti-Mafia, but I don't think Espi sees that. I think Espi contacting bloodwolf is now very strong town tell.
>>@Maniac - Wait you think Espi voting for whatever wagons popped up was genuine scum-hunting? The second bit is a valid point though
DL is also strong town tell in my eyes. He saw my soft and stayed off me when I was under pressure. Mafia DL sees my soft and joins my wagon I think.
I think Wjessop is looking scummy now in his response to nDs flip. He is keen to attack ND rather than his argument and his system. For categorising scum is bad and frankly beneath Wjessop. I'd be happy with a Wjessop lynch tomorrow. As I'm probably a candidate for a NK I hope you take my and NDs views into consideration.”
“@yoyo - I second bo's request as to why you crumbed cop. I asked you about this is real time: I likened your janitor/cop persona to that of Hong-kong Phooey.”
“Bo - the logic 'maniac is scum if Espi is scum - therefore vote maniac' is terrible. Town shouldn't be so convinced that their first scum read to be able to take it as given and move directly to vote for their second scum read. When I thought Espi was scum, you calling him scum and not voting for him was scummy.
Now I'm town reading Espi, I don't have much of a case on you.
My comment about bloodwolf is correct. I thought about merit of lynching someone who would likely be modkilled to see if that would help or hinder us. I concluded correctly that having bloodwolf modkilled statistically increases our chances, how is that scummy?”
pg29 - “OCTOTHORPEHASHTAGvote jeff - he is literally begging to be lynched, let's not disappoint him”
pg30 - “1. wjessop – One of the leaders of the ND lynch who was so confident, he said we could lynch him today. I think we should follow through with ND’s wishes and run WJessop up for the lynch. I think Wjessop may have panicked a little that ND was on to him so when he saw an opportunity to lynch ND he took it. We all know that being dead does not make ND right, but we are a team and his opinions should still matter especially as we know they come from the right place. I also didn’t like Wjessop’s reaction to ND’s death.
>>@Maniac - taking old case + adding basically nothing = weak
2. ND – COP RIP
3. Yoyoyozo – I thought I’d detected a soft from yoyo, but maybe I was reaching. Yoyo read me as scum and it is true I have been less active than my usual self. Whilst I’m busy, I also wanted to blend in and make a soft of my own, thinking I could take a Nightkill. I can’t think of anything particularly scummy that yoyo has done.
4. Ghug – Wrong about ND and wrong about me, but I can understand how he got me wrong – I am playing differently so ghug and to some extent bo picking this up could be town indicative.
5. DeathLlama – I’m going for town because he picked up CaptJeff’s soft and stayed well away. Sure he could have been waiting to NK him, and maybe claim town cred, but I sensed it was genuine. He also stayed off me as he saw my soft when I would have been easy lynch. Prob my strongest town read.
6. Guak – His playstyle really suited a town PR last game but we also know that mafia guak likes to keep a low profile. I think there are better candidates for D2 lynch, but I’d like to see more from guak, now I know he isn’t a PR and has no valid reason to stay in the shadows.
>>@Maniac - interesting that you paint this as “town PR” and “mafia” while ignoring that vanilla-townie Guak is absolutely useless. What gives?
7. Vecna – I didn’t like his voting for me when I thought Espi would be much better lynch for a newbie and I also didn’t like his comment that he would follow popular lynch. I have to put aside my OMGUS feelings, but still think he could be scum.
8. Espi – Once my top scum and now a good town read. I liked him unvoting me when it was easier for he to stay on my train. I liked him PMing Bloodwolf.
9. BloodWolf99697 – Town RIP
10. bo_sox – Whilst I dislike his logic off pushing me when he said he thought Espi was a better lynch, as I’m now town reading espi, I don’t really think Bo’s actions are scum indicative.
11. Maniac - Town
12. CaptJeff – Capt fake softed which if you all recall, he said last game he didn’t breadcrumb as he says so little it would be picked up. This means he was hoping it would be picked up (well done DL) and he wanted to avoid a lynch or draw a nightkill. In itself it isn’t concrete evidence either way – I think it is more scummy than saintly. However, Jeff is just crying out to be lynched. He has done nothing and hopes to sail by copying capt’s play style. This isn’t town Jeff who likes to get involved (sometimes mistakenly).
So in summary: Wjessop, Vecta and Captjeff for scum team.
On first read of y2k’s EOD I thought he’d soft cleared me and that would make me prime target. Now, I’m not so sure, but if I die please take my reads into account. Unlike ND I disapprove of the Hammer – take your time and catch these mothers.
I probably won’t be on later, hence posting early.
pg36 - “@bo you're probably mis-remembering our Mafia game together because you weren't in it very long. I was posting heaps and Guak literally used to appear post ^^scum and leave.” “im changing my thinking on CaptJeff somewhat. Jeff's narrative that Capt was setting himself up to take a NK bullet could be authentic. I think I fell into the trap Capt fell into last time and thought that because this 'could' be false it had to be false. I'm going to take Jeff at his word on this one and completely reverse my read on him.
Espi is obvious town or great Mafia player. I haven't played with him much, but don't regard him as great Mafia so I'm sticking with obv town. No one could write like he does at pace he does without making scum-slip after scum-slip. His stream of conscience stuff couldn't be faked.
Mafia Wjessop always wants to go for MVP and I think his plan here is to fill up our thread with arguing in circles with espi and he really doesn't care if this is getting to Espi in real life.
I can't get much of a read on Yoyo and rest are just absent.
I really think the wifom stuff about why Mafia killed Ghug is a waste of time.
votewjessop”
pg38 - “I'll post more reads and responses later, but for now the thing that is bugging me is Espi and his comment that Wjessop is missing the obvious things...What obvious things Espi?” “@yoyo - did you finish compiling all the pages into one dicument?”
pg39 - “In future in a set-up like this the Cop should claim in plenty of time to save him/herself. ND is correct that claiming ‘may’ have led to his death anyway – but not claiming means certain loss of cop and a townie in NK, whereas claiming leads to only possible loss of cop and possibility that scum could die in lynch. It also opens up a frantic last 30mins or so that can be analysed later.
Whilst ND didn’t have a great game tactically, we shouldn’t discount his reads, particularly his read on Wjessop. Wjessop’s reaction to ND’s read after ND has flipped is also telling. Wjessop would have us believe ND’s reads are worthless because he played badly and he will also tell us that people relying on ND’s reads are scummy, but neither of those are true.
I know four alignments right now and it is correct for me to give more weight to ND’s reads than anybody else’s still living. I say this knowing that ghug scum read me and it is just as acceptable for everyone else to give that some credence as it is for me and others to take account of ND’s views. What you don’t see is me attacking ghug in order to undermine his views. Wjessop attacking ND personally is scummy. If Wjessop tried to answer ND’s case then he would be less scummy.
Whilst I don’t think it is necessarily scummy behaviour, I also intensely dislike WJessop’s line about ‘lynch me if I’m wrong’. It conveys a sense of certainty in their beliefs that really shouldn’t exist D1 and so often leads town astray.
I’ve already stated that I think Wjessop’s constant argumentative style with Espi is more like to be Scum Wjessop than Town Wjessop. I do note that he is actually having the better of the argument and Espi has continued to say some scummy things, but my overall read on Espi is still town although that could changed when Espi gets around to answering my query on him.
ND also had a strong scum read on Vecna and I think N1 and D2 have added to his scumminess. In the game I was scum with DeathLlama9 (as he was then), he was a noob and absent D1. We encouraged him to lurk through rest of the game and he did a great job. I think Vecna could have been asked to keep his head down D2.
I have to change my read yet again on CaptJeff. Jeff is keen for us to town clear him based on what he tells us is Capt setting himself up for the NK N1. But if Jeff is relying on Capt’s comments to soft-clear him, he also has to accept that mafia would have targeted the most soft-cleared player and yet here Jeff is still alive. Not only that but Jeff appears to ‘know’ he wouldn’t be killed even though town Jeff’s line of thinking would’ve led him to conclude he was #1 target. Before N1 ended Jeff said. “think others have some good ideas though which I will explore more D2”. This belies a certainty that he would be alive, and any good townie would have shared those good ideas. I also note that Jeff still hasn’t shared those good ideas.
I think the scum team is Wjessop, Vecna and Jeff.
If I die in lynch or NK, please kill WJessop – both ND and I might be wrong, but at least you guys will know our hearts are pure.”
“Really Wjessop? Your clever enough to know that ND's tactical flaws do not undermine his reads, but you want to conflate the two in an effort to undermine his reads. I ask you to make a defence against his case, and you haven't. And now rather than replying to the case you try and wave it away with 'Maniac, you're obsessed', yet another example of you trying to attack the player and not address the argument.”
URGENT REPLACEMENT NEEDED
bet, WTA, 24 hour phases?
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