Latvia: 7.1
Lithuania: 7.2
Estonia: 6.9

@Stressedlines
“Lan, the 2nd amendment was never intended to protect us from aninbvasion outside the country, but from a Tyranical government here....sort of like what we have had for the last 20 or so years, as they erode at our rights without a 2nd thought.”

So it didn’t work, you mean?

It seems like you shot yourself in the foot there…

"I read that the guns he used were not covered by the assault weapons ban were it still in effect."

Sort of my point, Invictus--seems as if those laws were not strict enough, or wouldn't have been.

So...make them stricter?
Even a little bit?
In some regard?

Are you HONESTLY saying that ZERO can be done on gun law reform...that it's perfect?

That we should do absolutely nothing?

Our gun control policy is *that* good, eh?

"Look at me, I'm obiwan the magnificent and I just know gun laws are going to work, even though I've no evidence, because it's just obvious"

"Like I said before, if you want to have regulations which could have prevented this murdering loser from buying guns then you'll need to amend the constitution. But continue ignoring that..."

OR just enact stricter gun control laws?

I am utterly flabbergasted (a word I don't get to use often enough!) at the stance being taken here...

The current policy didn't stop it, and a previous one wouldn't have--so no policy is worth trying?

Denying some guns is denying all guns?

Any regulation is a violation of the 2nd Amendment (which cares more about MILITIA and was written at a time when the deadliest weapon was just good enough to maybe nail a deer for dinner, and not AT ALL matching the situation gun ownership is today, and the Ten Bill of Rights Amendments are NOT the Ten Commandments, ie, set in stone by a power above to NEVER be challenged in any measure ever for all of eternity, but just keep ignoring that...)

@Stressedlines

Do you think that freer gun laws reduce crime?

"The current policy didn't stop it, and a previous one wouldn't have--so no policy is worth trying?"

Maybe it is worth trying a policy. We've not tried the policy of mandating that every American be taught to use a gun in school, and carry one with him all the time. Why not try it?

(my last post is directed at obiwan)

Theghostmaker, i dont know, really.

However, I do not like it when people like Obi try to use the 'militia' thing, and twist it around, when Jefferson made it QUITE CLEAR what he meant by it.

Fair enough. I agree

Was it last year that that guy in Norway mowed down a bunch of teenagers at a day camp, standing on mounds of bodies, or was that the year before? Easily more people than this tragedy, in a country with tighter gun control, and much lower population. I don't think one could call us easily the most violent first world nation.

It's a horrible thing that happened, but we're far from the only country these things happen in, and gun control doesn't seem to truly help with it.

This is one of the places I'm a somewhat "bad" liberal.

CNN is reporting this is the largest mass shooting in American history with 12 killed and 59 injured, for 71 total victims in all.

"First, on the Militia word that Libs love to use, Militias were formed when needed,. There was never an official Militia, and no, The national guard is NOT THAT, since at any time The Federal government can get control of it."

I never claimed the National Guard WAS that militia...?

""The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government:" notice the word 'the people' there."

Did he say people had the right to ALL guns?



I don't get it...why is ANY regulation AT ALL abhorrent???

I'm not trying to take away all guns here...but you really believe absolutely no regulation is necessary or warranted???

@Sacred

Last July, so about a year ago. If Norway's massacre rate is once every two years, then to keep up per capita, the US would need one every 12 days.

"""It is BS that the US has a higher murder rate than the rest of the world combined"

I said the FIRST WORLD, sir--that is, Europe and select parts of Asia, mostly.

"Our Rate per capita is dwarfed by nations of Central and South America. The murder rate in Honduras is 40 (!) times that in the US. South Africa is another worse case."

My point exactly--those are NOT First World regions.

"Please, don't use liberal talking points without checking your facts first."

Please, don't post in complete ignorance without checking what I actually SAID first.

Thank you, have a nice day."

Ukraine: 7 violent deaths per 100,000
US: 6.5 violent deaths per 100,000

Awkward..."

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/second_world.htm

Lists the Ukraine as a SECOND world country, so not First World, if that's accurate...?

And CNN says it's not three but FOUR guns now.

Also, about "leading first world nations in shootings like this"...you do realize that the USA has a higher population than most other first world nations, right? There are very few countries over 100 million population in the world and Japan is pretty much the only other one that most would consider first world, and even that's iffy. Meanwhile, we're at 300 million+. If you go by sheer numbers, we probably lead the first world in a lot of things.

I'll admit, not the best source, but it'll do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

US: 314 mil
Japan: 128 mil (significantly less than half)
Germany: 82 mil (most populous country in Europe, slightly over a quarter of the US population)
France: 65 mil (second most populous country in Europe, about a fifth the US population.)

I have to dredge this sort of thing up every time people use sheer numbers to compare Detroit to our neighbors across the river, Windsor.

US civilian owned guns: 88.8 per 100
Belarus: 7.3 per 100
Ukraine: 6.6 per 100
Latvia: 19 per 100
Lithuania: 0.7 per 100
Estonia: 9.2 per 100

Guess which of these European/North American countries has the lowest homicide rate?

"Maybe it is worth trying a policy. We've not tried the policy of mandating that every American be taught to use a gun in school, and carry one with him all the time. Why not try it?"

Perhaps because that would break laws we have standing, not to mention fly in the face of common sense.

I will ask it again and again until I get a straight answer--

WHY is it all or nothing, WHY does "let's try and regulate things a bit more" translate to "HIDE YOUR GUNS! HIDE YOUR GUNS! ALL OF THEM! OH MY GOD THEY'RE AFTER OUR GUNS..."

Hell, I hate Gibson, but this *IS* the impression I get from you all...

Ahem:

Braveheart: THEY MAY TAKE OUR LIVES, BUT THEY'LL *NEVER* TAKE OUR GUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"CNN is reporting this is the largest mass shooting in American history with 12 killed and 59 injured, for 71 total victims in all."

Largest mass shooting in American history was dwarfed by the largest mass shooting in Norwegian history just last year, which lists 69 dead and 110 injured, 55 of them seriously. Almost as many people were killed by that as were injured and killed in Colorado.

Obiwan, the countries I've listed are European countries, I contest that they can meaningfully be called second world countries.

"And CNN says it's not three but FOUR guns now."
So Fucking What?

Obiwan, can you GIVE SOME EVIDENCE?

http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

So I decided to LOOK, just to see...lol

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

These are European nations

Now obi, only wanted to use '1st world nations' but, why? Many South American nations have strict gun laws also, why are they thrown out? What does first world have to do with Gun crimes?

So I looked at murder rates, not 'Gun Murder" since murder ismurder, regardless of what the tool is, right? If I shoot you in the head with a gun, or stab you with a knife, what is the difference? You are still DEAD.

I also looked at regular crime rate sin general.

US is #8 in the world, according to this, but ranked above them were Denmark, Uk, finalna, and netherlands right behind USA in 9th. This was western nations.

So, as we can see, gun laws do not restrict murder rates at all. Sure, we have high GUN murders, but we are not at the top of the list for murders per capita.

US looks to be about 5.5 per 100K people. There are quite a few European nations above that number, but most are below it.

Examples"

Estonia 6.7
Lithunia 9.1
switzerland 3.1
Finland 2.9

So, just looking casually at this, US is not so far out there, as some want to claim, unless you are ONLY looking at Gun Crimes, then of course we lead the pack, we have MORE guns than anyone.

Obiwan, you realise the list you quoted had East and West Germany as different countries? Mightn't it be a bit out of date?

Alright, alright, hang on...let me look for a list of first-world countries, if it does say West/East Germany, lol

;)

lol @ east/west germany on the list.

Every list shows the same--

US, Canada, Australia, Europe east of the Balkans excluding the Scandinavian countries, a few stray ones (ie, Argentina has a comparatively high development rating, at least higher than much of South America) and that's the list.

"Any regulation is a violation of the 2nd Amendment (which cares more about MILITIA and was written at a time when the deadliest weapon was just good enough to maybe nail a deer for dinner, and not AT ALL matching the situation gun ownership is today, and the Ten Bill of Rights Amendments are NOT the Ten Commandments, ie, set in stone by a power above to NEVER be challenged in any measure ever for all of eternity, but just keep ignoring that...) "

My dad actually owns and I have fired a Revolutionary War era firearm, and I'll tell you they're certainly not lacking in power. There have been many improvements to accuracy and reload speed, but power was never a serious problem once we got to the point of firearms. Yes, firearms can and have been designed with lesser power, but if you get hit with a American Revolution era musket, a Wild West era Winchester, or a modern single shot rifle, you're just as dead.

The biggest separation in guns between then and now is how long it takes to fire the next round.

Obiwan, the 1st/2nd/3rd world distinction doesn't even make any sense any more. That's why lists have east and west germany separate.

"Every list shows the same--

US, Canada, Australia, Europe east of the Balkans excluding the Scandinavian countries, a few stray ones (ie, Argentina has a comparatively high development rating, at least higher than much of South America) and that's the list. "

Wait...what? Alright, US, Canada, Australia...but then it'd be Europe WEST of the Balkans that's the higher HDI and Scandinavia usually has the highest HDI on the planet.