"Everybody knows NYC has been fully controlled by the Irish (Tammany Hall anyone) for decades and decades."

LOL, really? When's the last time the Tammany Hall machine selected a New York mayor? the '40s? Next you'll tell me that the mayor of New York is just a figurehead. It's hilarious that you try to sound like some anti-racist crusader while constantly bashing Muslims, Catholics, Arabs, Irish, Poles, Slovaks, Bulgarians, and I'm sure a bunch of other groups I haven't bothered to remember.

"I find you are defense of them some strange, since you are such an ardent Communist/Stalnist, but then again, Jewish people are not strangers to that movement."

Well first off,
"Stalinist" Russia was the first country to recognize Israel. Israel was founded by Marxists. Marxists tend to be anti-fascist. I don't know why this is surprising, since the Palestinian 'solidarity' movement is full of fascists.

Are you aware of the whole point of a political machine, where, you know, the mayors ARE figureheads.

I'm still waiting to see if Dublin and Hawaii are Jewish homelands as well.

"LOL, really? When's the last time the Tammany Hall machine selected a New York mayor? the '40s?"

Well considering you considered it to be the obvious choice for a Jewish homeland in the 40s, and even earlier when the aliyahs were occurring, I fail to see why you're laughing.

But to answer your question. Tammany ran NYC as its personal fiefdom as recently as the 60s.

"It's hilarious that you try to sound like some anti-racist crusader while constantly bashing Muslims, Catholics, Arabs, Irish, Poles, Slovaks, Bulgarians, and I'm sure a bunch of other groups I haven't bothered to remember."

Wait, so calling NYC a 'Jewish homeland' isn't anti-Semitic, but mentioning the fact that Irish-Americans have had enormous influence in NYC politics is?

Does not compute. Also I've long defended Irish nationalism on here, so I don't get how I'm an anti-Irish bigot now.

"They are historically based and show a complete lack of knowledge on your part"

Actually, you acknowledged that all my points were factually correct in your 'response'. Your contention for each was that they were irrelevant, which is a matter of opinion.

Basically, the contention comes to this: you want Jews to invade someone else's country, expel, murder, and oppress the native population, wage wars on the neighbors who aren't happy about the situation, and then cry racism when anyone says that's wrong. But my preference that Jews come to a country where they are welcomed in peace with open arms is inherently anti-semitic somehow.

"But to answer your question. Tammany ran NYC as its personal fiefdom as recently as the 60s. "

Ah, so the Irish aren't still running New York like you were claiming a few minutes ago?

Their influence ended FIFTY YEARS AGO??? And they don't still have Michael Bloomberg in their hip pocket?

There was no 'invasion'. Evidently the very presence of Jews is an 'invasion', now. The 'native population' is less oppressed in Israel than it is under Hamas rule in Gaza, or under Hashemite rule in Jordan, or virtually anywhere else. What kind of 'occupation' would allow open terrorist groups participate in the political process and hold elections.

The wars were waged upon it. But I guess if you're invaded by three armies, it's your fault.

Responses to a number of things, apologies for lumping these all in one post:

"Why isn't Jordan the pariah state du jour?"

Because Palestinians can still live in relative peace and freedom in Jordan. They do not have to worry about being gunned down for sport by Jordanian soldiers. The Jordanian government is not building massive concrete walls right through the middle of Palestinian refugee camps. Palestinian homes are not bulldozed to make way for new housing tracts built for Hashemites only. Palestinians are not forced to waste hours going through "security checkpoints" to get to work every day (for those fortunate enough to have jobs).

"That had nothing to do with Palestinian nationalism. They wanted an Arab state encompassing the whole of Ottoman Arabia. Show me where there was any notion of Palestinian nationalism during WWI. No, they all followed King Faisal's idea of Greater Syria. "

So it's okay to murder and expel hundreds of thousands of people from their homes so long as they perceive themselves as part of a polity that transcends the area they're being expelled from? Is it okay for me to kick you out of your house and make Ohio a new homeland for _______, then, since you have 49 other states you can live in?

"Not sure why everyone talks in binary about it. Can't the actions of both sides be pretty damning? Palestinian terrorist tactics and uncompromising rhetoric about not recognizing Israel's existence diserve their fair share of criticism."

All we need to do is change a couple of words and we'll get this: "The terrorist tactics of the Sioux and uncompromising rhetoric about not recognizing South Dakota's existence deserve their fair share of criticism" Once upon a time, the genocide against the Indians was justified by the dire need for land by all the European immigrants settling in America. It is universally recognized today that that was morally wrong.

"Right, so you have no solution but we're expected to cry crocodile tears over a small population of people who made Mufti Haj Husseini their leader and recruited Waffen SS divisions"

I'm *still* waiting for you to enumerate all the Waffen SS divisions you claim Husseini recruited from a few IP threads ago. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims actually fought *against* the Nazis in the allied armies (mostly Britain and France). Why am I not surprised that Putin is overlooking this fact?

"They weren't forced. The land was owned by absentee landlords, from whom it was purchased."

This constituted a very small amount of the land in question (only 6% of the Mandate was owned by Jews before the partition), as I've pointed out several times now.

"PE, I think you're exaggerating the displacement narrative from 1948.
The borders that were proposed and accepted by the Jews included a significant Arab state (Palestinian, I suppose). Furthermore, Palestinians were free to live in the new Israeli state."

No, he's not exaggerating. Terrorist groups like the Haganah were actively attacking Palestinian villages - before the partition was accepted by the Zionists - with the goal of driving all non-Jews off the land. There was great opposition in the Zionist camp to accepting the partition, which was only overcome when Ben Gurion convinced many that acceptance was a necessary temporary pause on the road to the ultimate goal - gaining all of Palestine. And the partition was gerrymandered to guarantee Israel the most territory it could that would maintain a Jewish majority (which is why the Palestinian side of the partition had almost no Jews), much like France carved Lebanon out of Syria to create a new country with a bare Christian majority in an effort to maintain a less obvious 'independent' colony in the Levant tied to France by a shared religion and the threat of an independent Syria.

"Ah, so the Irish aren't still running New York like you were claiming a few minutes ago?"

You claimed NYC was a Jewish homeland since time immemorial, including when Israel was founded. Your evidence for this is they have a Jewish mayor right now. One Jewish mayor, that's apparently all it takes to create a homeland. But over a century of running the town via a political machine is apparently irrelevant.

"I'm *still* waiting for you to enumerate all the Waffen SS divisions you claim Husseini recruited from a few IP threads ago."

I figured you were a complete ignoramous about WWII history, but this takes the cake.

http://serbianna.com/analysis/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/mufti_jerusalem_cropped.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)

"Actually, you acknowledged that all my points were factually correct in your 'response'. Your contention for each was that they were irrelevant, which is a matter of opinion."

Let me explain why my contentions were FAR from irrelevant.

I showed that New York has not had Jews since its founding, they were kicked out by Stuyvesant. And even if New York did have Jews they werre minute and New York was a Jewish backwater compared to other areas of North America. And finally I showed that Israel, which you claim is not the Jewish homeland, has continuously had Jews for much longer than New York.

That dispelled that brain dead argument.

I suggested that the fact that Russian Jews came to the United States (they went to Israel in huge numbers as well but lets put that aside) was for economic reasons, just like any other migration. It does not in the least suggest New York is a Jewish "homeland"

That dispels that brain dead argument

I showed that having a Jewish leader is shared by several cities and states around the world that could be hardly called "A Jewish homeland"

That expelled that brain dead argument

I have showed that Israel, like America was a site for Jews to flee from persecution, and to add to that, Jews were not able to flee to America in mass as you suggest after WWII so your utopian world where all the jews were welcomed with open arms is bogus.

That dispells that brain dead argument

And, Finally, I showed that just because a place has not had race riots targetted against a people does not mean that is a homeland. Jews have been expelled from New york in the past, just like they were expelled elsewhere. And even if they havn't who cares? Jews have never been expelled and killed in several places. It does not suggest at all that it was a jewish homeland.



Basically, viewing your contrived arguments, its obvious what you meant by your statement. A stereotype of the Jewish new yorker is a catch-all for every Jew. Same old bull shit from Tolstoy.

And again, there is nothing wrong with criticizing zionism, Israel, Judaism, etc. There is a major problem using disgusting stereotypes to do so like you constantly do.

"There was no 'invasion'. Evidently the very presence of Jews is an 'invasion', now."

When hundreds of thousands of people move into a new land with the expressed intention of driving out the original inhabitants, yes, that is an invasion. Jews peacefully migrating to America and co-existing with everyone else is not an invasion. See the difference?

"What kind of 'occupation' would allow open terrorist groups participate in the political process and hold elections. "

The "terrorist groups" participate in their *own* elections, not Israel's, and the results of those elections were ignored by Israel when they didn't like the outcome not too long ago. As for the Palestinians being less oppressed by Israel, this claim is so ridiculous that I won't respond but to ask this: in what other country are Palestinians denied permission to dig new *water wells* after their existing ones dry up because all the water is being sucked out of the ground to fill the ruling ethnic group's swimming pools?

ha I spelled dispelled different every time, impressive.

"I figured you were a complete ignoramous about WWII history, but this takes the cake."

Eh? I thought you said that Palestinians collaborated en masse with the Nazis? Why does the picture show several dozen European-looking fellows in uniforms and only one Palestinian (who is not in a uniform), and your wikipedia link is about a Yugoslavian SS division? WHERE ARE THE PALESTINIAN SS DIVISIONS YOU PROMISED???

"The "terrorist groups" participate in their *own* elections, not Israel's, and the results of those elections were ignored by Israel when they didn't like the outcome not too long ago."

Yes, and did you see that part where those champions of democracy and freedom liquidated all of their political opponents?

Come on Tolstoy, I want an explanation, why is New York the Jewish homeland if it didn't become a Jewish center until basically the same time Zionism was being developed and shortly before the immigrations to Israel? What is it about New York that makes it my homeland? How about you address an argument rather than brushing it off. Everything you said up there was false, irrelevant, and equally applicable to Israel. Why is New York the Jewish homeland?

I've taken issue with two points in this whole thread.

1.) Tolstoy's normal stereotypical statements
2.) Genghistan fucking quoting the Protocols of the elders of Zion

Sorry guys, I believe that you can attack Israel without being anti-semitic, but if you say something anti-semitic, I'm not going to give you a pass because its a discussion about Israel.

"I showed that New York has not had Jews since its founding, they were kicked out by Stuyvesant"

I didn't say since its founding. I said since the time of Herzl's grandparents, which would've been the 18th century at the earliest. What's that about reading comprehension again?

"Basically, viewing your contrived arguments, its obvious what you meant by your statement. A stereotype of the Jewish new yorker is a catch-all for every Jew."

Santa, could you please expand on this? I can understand your other arguments (even though they are bunk), but I honestly don't get how saying that many Jews live in New York is an 'anti-semitic stereotype'.

"I don't know why this is surprising, since the Palestinian 'solidarity' movement is full of fascists."

Don't know about you, but over here the Australian Defence League has been happy to side with Zionists.

The SS recruited from everywhere, why not kick out Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Frenchmen, Danes, Norwegians, Belgians, Dutchmen, Ukrainians, Bielorussians, Russians, Bosnian Muslims, Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis?

"Yes, and did you see that part where those champions of democracy and freedom liquidated all of their political opponents?"

Yeah, after the losers refused to hand over power. They're still in control of the West Bank, as a matter of fact, where they continue to do Israel's bidding as they have for years.

Claim:
"I didn't say since its founding. I said since the time of Herzl's grandparents, which would've been the 18th century at the earliest. What's that about reading comprehension again?

Actuality:

"There has been a continuous Jewish presence in New York City almost since its foundation, long before the great-grandparents of Theodore Herzl were born"

My reading comprehension? How about your writing comprehension?

__________________________________

"Santa, could you please expand on this? I can understand your other arguments (even though they are bunk), but I honestly don't get how saying that many Jews live in New York is an 'anti-semitic stereotype'. "

1.) I still have yet to hear 1 argument why what I have said is "bunk."

2.) you didn't say "jews live in new york" you said New York "is the Jewish homeland" which offers a very different connotation. The connotation being, of course, your original intent that Jews are just a bunch of New Yorkers.

I am not going to let you off the hook

especially reply to the first point in which you attempted to completely change what you said in the very same thread.

I still don't get why the Palestinians at large are getting assigned group blame for the Holocaust; even if some Palestinians collaborated, how is it *not* doing *the exact same thing* to turn around and just kick thousands upon thousands of Palestinians - the vast majority of whom didn't perpetrate any aspect of the Holocaust - out of their homeland to make living space for displaced Jews?

"Well, these assholes kicked a bunch of innocent people out of their homes and left them displaced, so we need to find them a home... I know! Out of all of these folks over here, the vast majority of whom are themselves innocent, there were some people who liked what happened to those innocent people, and may have even helped perpetrate the crimes against those innocent people... let's kick this WHOLE GROUP out and let the first group of innocent people get a country for their own!"

"Why is New York the Jewish homeland?"

I'm not going to spend my whole weekend looking up immigration statistics to win a pointless internet debate, but I will say this: New York/America is the Jewish Homeland (or should be, or should have been) because millions of people do not have to die or be expelled from their homes for it to be so, and tens of millions of Jews and non-Jews would not have to live their lives in fear of war for decades.

Anyhoo, I got home from work at 6AM, woke up at 2PM, and have spent the last three hours on this thread. I'm taking a break. Probably a long one.

Its a bad way of looking at it Eden, no one credible blames them for the holocaust. After the holocaust there were thousands of Jews, mostly young displaced. They lost their families and entire communities in many cases. They were surrounded by continually hostile neighbors who in many cases had taken everything they owned leaving them without any home. Many of these Jews decided to go to Israel. They didn't blame the palestinians for anything. They went to a place they thought they could call home after their home had been erased. This migration exacerbated the conflict that had been smoldering between jews and palestinians since the first immigrations. A war broke out and both sides engaged in ethnic cleansing

I don't know how you can sit here and criticize an entire generation that had been put through such a trauma and act as if a bunch of Jews just decided to up and fuck with a bunch of Arabs. They DID NOT do the exact same thing as the Nazis and fuck you for saying so. They were people who were escaping the chaos of World War II and were almost immediately embroiled in another war that looked strikingly similar. I think you need to consider that before you portray them as some frat boys looking for a good time.

"Anyhoo, I got home from work at 6AM, woke up at 2PM, and have spent the last three hours on this thread. I'm taking a break. Probably a long one. "

Yeah, you probably should, being unable to mount any argument to defend a braindead assertion must be about as embarrassing as something can be on the internet. Get bent.

Santa Clausowitz, I quoted the Protocols because I was comparing that particular piece of utter bullshit with the claim by taos to the effect that islam is making war on everybody. NOT because I endorse the Okhrana's odious forgery.

Bob- You can take your thread 2 ways

1. The way you meant
2. Look! You Jews have your own skeletons!

It probably would have been helpful clarifying, but I take my statement back