I think there is a very large difference between the connotations of "nigger" and "girl". That's a very large stretch.

"You know damn well it's a male trait to be aggressive and vocal."

Um...No...I don't know that at all! You hate anecdotal evidence, but I can only speak from my own experiences. I know plenty of women who are very aggressive and vocal and I know plenty of men who are shy and get pushed around. I don't see your point at all. Again, you are making generalizations that I have not experienced.

Putin + All the points. Seriously, all of them.

I'm sorry to say this forum is pretty homogeneous in a lot of ways. It's mostly English speaking, straight, white men (obviously there are exceptions, don't go pointing examples of them to prove me wrong, straight white men are the dominant group) and so it becomes very easy for people here to not think about these things critically as a result. I'm actually glad to see someone willing to call people out on word use that is problematic, and really is it so much work to try and consider the effect your unconscious habits have?

Here's the problem:

As a group, women have been treated poorly in the past (and, in some ways, still currently). That sucks. I won't argue against it.

But, you could make an argument that *any* name for a woman (girl, lady, lass, gal, even *woman*) can be derogatory, because they *all* were used in a derogatory manner in the past! So, I really don't see the difference in any of them. Times change and the connotations of words change with them.

What is so problematic about the OP describing a female friend in a socializing situation as "girl"? Seriously. What's the problem?

It's not like someone just walked up in here and said "We should refer to all girls as girls and not women because fuck women they're second-class people." Putin seriously walked in here and picked a fight with the OP because OP referred to a female friend as a girl. That's fucking ridiculous.

@ President Eden and abgemact et al. Intent does not erase effect. No one is arguing that redhouse or anyone else was intentionally trying to denigrate or reduce his colleague. Not even Putin. But when you call a woman a "girl" even if you don't intend to, even if the woman in question doesn't feel like you are, your word use is still borne out of a system that is sexist and patriarchal, and your word use reflects that, even if you don't mean it. And you might say that this is a completely superficial thing, but it goes beyond that. This is where it starts on a daily basis. Watch your language use, see how it reflects larger systems of oppression. It's important.

And, because it's been bumped to the last page, I'll ask Putin again (Mafia could answer too)

What is the socially acceptable female equivalent to "guy"?

So basically, Putin walked into a thread wherein the OP sought people to introduce his female friend to Diplomacy and started attacking everyone for not railing against the system.

Because, you know, this was fucking relevant at all.

And if you'll excuse me, I'm going to pass on buying this whole "I'm insulting people by not being insulting in the use of a not-insulting word in a not-insulting situation in description of a woman who does not feel insulted" line. Thanks.

"But when you call a woman a "girl" even if you don't intend to, even if the woman in question doesn't feel like you are, your word use is still borne out of a system that is sexist and patriarchal, and your word use reflects that, even if you don't mean it."

If I refer a women as a girl and I don't mean it as an offense and she isn't offended, what is the problem. I legitimately do not understand.

I'm not sure. I can't speak to that.
To say that it must necessarily be "girl" is problematic though, because the word "girl" also happens to coincide with the female equivalent of the word "boy", which is quite explicitly infantilizing.

That being said, I feel that systematic sexism and the way in which our day to day language use perpetuates patriarchal power structures is rather a more serious problem than you not having a convenient way to refer to women in a casual setting.

Seriously, your situation basically paints it such that no matter what word I use, no matter what context, no matter what situation, no matter what intent, no matter what the audience thinks, I am doing something wrong.

If I'm wrong despite all attempts not to be, and despite anyone feeling wronged, then quite frankly, I don't care. At all. If I don't have a way to be right under yours or Putin's viewpoint, I don't care if I'm wrong.

The problem is that the way in which people are unconsciously socialized to think about women is a way which is deeply sexist. And the way to fight that is to try and catch yourself whenever you do or say something that reflects that and make an effort not to continue that pattern.

"I'm not sure. I can't speak to that."

Well, then I can't really stop calling them "girls", can I? : )

"That being said, I feel that systematic sexism and the way in which our day to day language use perpetuates patriarchal power structures is rather a more serious problem than you not having a convenient way to refer to women in a casual setting."

No, I think it is the exact problem. If no one knows how to address people, what are they supposed to do?

For instance, I used to refer to everyone as "guys." Men, men & women, and women. It was easy and convenient. Well, guess what, all my female friends got pissed at me, so I stopped and stared calling them girls instead. I've heard no more complaints.

Wow President Eden. Straw man much? I didn't say there was no way to be correct. No one has said that. I'm just saying it is possible to say things that denigrate women without meaning to, and without the women you're speaking to necessarily realizing it. I didn't say EVERYTHING you said would have that effect. Just some things.

"The problem is that the way in which people are unconsciously socialized to think about women is a way which is deeply sexist."

Now this is a load of bull. I am not unconsciously deeply sexist because I sometimes refer to women as girls. Complete rubbish.

"Well, then I can't really stop calling them "girls", can I? : )" - Don't be stupid. I don't know what the female equivalent to "guy" is, but I don't think you'll horribly offend anyone by saying "that woman over there". There is more than one noun to refer to a male human beyond "guy" just as there is more than one noun which refers to a human female. Just because the term "girl" should be applied to an adult woman, doesn't mean there is no term to be used at all.

@Mafia

Do you see how you're not giving me a leg to stand on?

Let's say I agreed with you about "girl"? You can't give me an alternative and no one else can either, it seems.

So, I'm asking you, what am I supposed to say instead? It's not going to be woman because that's too formal of a term.

I'm not being stupid.

Clearly, I can't tell what's offensive and what isn't. So, I'm asking you to tell me what I can say instead? Why is that an unreasonable request?

Can I use gal? Does that refer exclusively to children? I don't know. I didn't think girl did either.

"what would you consider to be the socially acceptable female equivalent of "guy"

There isn't one.

Yeah, but apparently I'm allowed to call my male friends anything I want and I won't hurt their psyche.

Gal is a racially offensive term. But I'm sure you'll bluster about the pc police about that too.

"Wow President Eden. Straw man much? I didn't say there was no way to be correct. No one has said that. I'm just saying it is possible to say things that denigrate women without meaning to, and without the women you're speaking to necessarily realizing it. I didn't say EVERYTHING you said would have that effect. Just some things."

Yes, just some things, and yet we haven't seen a single thing that hasn't. And you've told us not to be stupid when we ask. Hmm.

"Now this is a load of bull. I am not unconsciously deeply sexist because I sometimes refer to women as girls. Complete rubbish." - I didn't say that you were sexist because you refer to women as girls. That's like saying "I have a cold because I'm sneezing" the sneezing is the symptom, not the cause. And the fact is, people approach women differently than they do men. That is why there is still gender inequality in our society. It is impossible to look at a woman, in a context where gender is theoretically irrelevant, and not think of them very differently than you would think about a man. Think about that in your own life. Now I know exactly what you'll say "No no no, not me. I treat everyone the same." But do you really? Again, I'm not questioning your intent. I don't think you're actually what we would call a sexist person in any way. The best way I can describe it is with the frequently used metaphor, in these contexts of the moving sidewalk. Sexism, is like a moving sidewalk that everyone is standing on. There are some people who actually are sexist, they're the ones walking in the same direction as the sidewalk, really quickly. Then you have the people who don't really think about sexism much at all and say "I'm not sexist". You're standing still on the sidewalk sure, but the sidewalk is still carrying you along. If you actually dont' want to be carried along by the sidewalk, you have to try to walk in the opposite direction. That's what we're talking about here.

"There isn't one."

ROFL

Well then fuck me sideways! Seriously, what do you want from me then?

I can't use a word that I don't mean as offensive and isn't received as offensive, and I can't use anything else either?

Why are we even having this conversation then? Seriously. I'm at a total loss.

LOL. "Gal" is an endearing term often used in reference to white females in the South. That's ridiculously weak. If it ever had racial connotations in the past, those are dead and gone now.

@Mafia

No. I treat people very differently. I'll freely admit that. For instance, my first thought when seeing a woman is "would I fuck her?"

However, I don't let that interfere with how I interact with her. And, more to the point, I judge her skills as objectively as I possibly can. I won't pretend that I'm perfectly bias-free. No one is. But, I'm cognizant of that and I *do* try to make sure it doesn't affect me. This is a case, however, that I don't think is actually oppressive to women.

"Yeah, but apparently I'm allowed to call my male friends anything I want and I won't hurt their psyche." - Yes, because there is no history or present reality of systematic oppression of men! (I mean, some men are oppressed obviously, but not for being men, men as a group are the privileged group in this case).

"Do you see how you're not giving me a leg to stand on?

Let's say I agreed with you about "girl"? You can't give me an alternative and no one else can either, it seems." In what context?
For example if you were at a party and someone asked you "Sorry, who's Lisa?"
And you said "Lisa is that girl over there, in the red sweater."
Is it really so horribly odd to say "Lisa is that woman over there in the red sweater."
That sounds perfectly natural to me. I doubt anyone would even notice.

And like, if you walked up to a bunch of your female friends, you wouldn't say "hey girls" would you? That just sounds so strange to me.

Yeah, we're at a complete impasse right now. Maybe in the future, once I've experienced more and learned more and look at this in a different light, I can actually comprehend and accept this.

But right now, this just doesn't make any sense, and further elaboration isn't leading to any sort of understanding on my part at all, just greater confusion.

You really can't say women? It's physically impossible? I don't get why this is so upsetting to you. It's a reflection of society that most terms that refer to women reduce them in some way.

Actually, when I walk into a group of female friends, I either say "hey girls" or "hey ladies"

What would you say? "Hey women?" *That* would get me dirty looks from my female friends for sure.