@obiwanobiwan - At this point I think you're just muddying the waters. Stick with "Cyrano said it better" and leave it at that. I totally get what you're trying to say, and agree, but you're just kind of going off in all sorts of directions trying to restate it, and I think you're just confusing people and distracting from the main point.

To requote the person who's said it best in this discussion so far:

"The Death Camps were the "Final Solution" to a large number of "problem minorities" under the Nazi authority. The fact remains though that the campaign against the Jewish race was a central tenet of the National Socialist platform, the others were afterthoughts that got lumped in with them. The purpose of the camps were to solve the problem presented by the Jews, it was later that they were used for other groups.

That said, I agree that certainly the average American, and probably the average citizen of many other countries, are unaware of the millions who died in the holocaust who are not jewish. The fact that such ignorance exists in modern society is a black mark on all of humanity." - Cyrano

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/non-jewishvictims.htm

A good article about the make up of the other 5 million victims of Hitler's policies and the Holocaust.

I must admit Cyrano has stated it quite well, although
"The fact remains though that the campaign against the Jewish race was a central tenet of the National Socialist platform, the others were afterthoughts that got lumped in with them. The purpose of the camps were to solve the problem presented by the Jews, it was later that they were used for other groups"
is up for debate.

I think Xapi makes an interesting point. I suspect the truth is a combination of Xapi's and obiwan's

"The only deaths on U.S. soil in WWII"

-sorry, I meant the only deaths in the contiguous United States. Pearl Harbor as well, obviously.

"has anybody ever heard of the Winter War? It was 1940, between Finland and the USSR. The tactics the Finns used were simply amazing, and it helped them keep their sovereignty. The Soviets had a huge advantage material-wise, but the Finns used the landscape to their advantage. They mined the mountain passes, so that, when the Soviets sent a column of tanks through, the lead tank would be destroyed. The remaining tanks were nearly helpless, since it was difficult to coordinate a column of tanks going backward for miles (the passes were too narrow to turn around). Meanwhile, the Finns, with their skis and submachine guns, killed the suprised infantry riding on the tanks, then destroyed the tanks at their leisure. They destroyed entire columns this way."

The Winter War makes me proud to be a Scandinavian. The Finns, as this quote says, put up a brilliant defense against the biggest military in the world and retained their sovereignty.

I thought you were an American?

Damn Russians made a fool out of themselves in the Winter War, what a mess; out of all the nations that should of been able to fight well in the winter would be Russia but, Stalin had to purge his own army...

On another topic has anyone read the theories of how Germany could of won WWII with a "Desert Storm" attacking Turkey and a sweep northward from a greatly reniforced Rommel?

On the Note of Rommel, the theater of war in the desert: "War Without Hate."

More British soldiers than Germans listened to Rommel's radio broadcasts. Amazing that he was able to win this war with a 5:1 disadvantage in tanks.

referring to the winter war.... a "country" before this point of time never united, keeping its sovereignity against a battle hardened, experienced army, outnumbered and outgunned... was the battle of teutoburg forrest 9 a.c. arminius united the clans of german "barbarians" against his former boss, the romans.. destroying 3 full legions, using a lot of tactics that all other guerilla forces later re-used to their advantage (btw.. later the romans sent even more legions after them, only to get beaten again, once and for all... cementing the border between roman empire and german clan territory)

@Rommeltastic: when i am not mistaken rommel lost the battle in the end.. because of lack of support at least, nontheless he fought an impressive fight that got him a lot of respect even by his opponents

I am an American, and proud to be one. But my ancestors were from all over Scandinavia and also from Wales.

"Damn Russians made a fool out of themselves in the Winter War...."

-- airborne

That's true. They humiliated themselves as a military power. They are excellent at a Patton-esque "We have more people than them, so if they stand up and fight like we fight, we'll win" Wrong. The Soviets severely underestimated Finnish resolve and fairly basic tactical knowledge.

Did you guys know that the Finns invented the Molotov cocktail? They named it after Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov, whom they held largely responsible for the war. The original Molotovs were gasoline, but they switched to alcohol after gas grew scarce.

@ airborne - What you're thinking of was Admiral Raeder's strategy to choke the British Empire out of existence. He suggested coercing or invading Spain to allow the capture of Gibraltar, the capture of Malta to push the British out of the Med and the primary thrust of the Wehrmacht to go to North Africa and for Germany to not invade Russia. He recommended pushing through Egypt, capturing Suez and the Persian oil fields beyond, (thus taking care of Germany's greatest shortage in a protracted war) threatening Russia through Persia, forcing Turkey to join them in the eventual attack on Russia and then possibly pushing through India to link up with Japan.

@ Rommeltastic - Don't know what you're talking about, Rommel never actually won. Granted, with better logistical support he may have, but he wasn't even the best desert general. That title goes to Sir Richard O'Connor who was there before Rommel and pushed the Italians all the way back to Tripoli despite being outnumbered more than 10-1. His campaign was one of the most lopsided string of victories in modern warfare.

On to my points:

One great battle was Khalkin Gol, between the Russians and Japanese in their undeclared border war 1938-39. Russian General Georgi Zhukov outnumbered the Japanese Kwantung Army he faced about 2-1 but the Kwantung army was the single most experienced fighting force on the planet at the time, having been in constant combat since 1933. Zhukov used his advantage in mechanized units to pull off the first armored envelopment ever. It was his model that the German used to such great effect on Western Allied forces.

The most one-sided naval battle of all time doesn't even have an official title. It was during the Napoleonic War and a force of 17 French ships-of-the-line escorting 15,000 soldiers were scattered by a single 44-gun English frigate in one foggy night. English frigate was the Indefatigable and the Captain was Pellew. True story look it up.

Finally the Battle of Agincourt in 1415. English army of about 9,000 under King Henry V beat a French army about 5 times its size. French were completely routed. The English success was partly due to the English longbow, a bow that was a better weapon than any firearm prior to the invention of the rifled barrel. The disadvantage was that it took a lot of training to use as the drawweight (the force needed to draw the bow back) on a longbow was 150 pounds.

@C-K That is really a bigger what if than you think. The American west has changed alot in past 70 years. The west has been in a drought for the past couple of decades. The population back than was just a small fraction of what it is now so large burns where not the big deal as it was mostly wilderness. In fact it has been the decades of fire suppression has made the current condtions worse. If I recall correctly the attempt was also was late in the war and would have had very little affect on the American war effort. Infact a lot of wood products where still coming out of the east and nearly all of the industry was in the eastern half of the country.

@C-K A really big what if. With most of the US pop. and industry in the east, large areas could have burned wihtout affect. The west has changed alot in past 65yrs. Decades of fire suppression, prolonged drought, massive pop. growth, and new industry has made fire control a bigger deal now days. Back than the losses would have been mostly some groves, ranches, and scrubland. Only few of the fires would affected the wetter areas where the trees grow.

Sorry for the double post. The first did not show up the screen till I sign off and back on again.

My favorite battle is the bombardment of Zanzibar Town by the British in the Anglo-Zanzibar War. The battle and war lasted only 38 minutes.

What a taste for gunboat diplomacy.

diplofool is tellingly silent regarding the War of 1812.

Draugnar: Wow, your source doesn't mention anything about Soviet POW's or Soviet citizens. 3.5 million Soviet POW's died. Civilian casualties approach 14 million, 9.5 million of whom where either killed directly by Germans or died working as slaves.

Don Corleone: Alaska, Hawaii and Guam were U. S. territories. The phillipines was also part of the United States. I guess those 'attacks' were the only attacks on states of teh United States.

Philippines

the United States

The Battle of the Nile perhaps?

the butter battle. and the book that documents it.

@ djbent : )

if the state militia's in the war of 1812 weren't a bunch of pussies, america would have done a lot better overall in the canadian front.

For favourite Operation, it would have to be Operation Frankton (it was dramatised as the cockleshell heroes). The actual operation was a brilliant example of how a simple idea, well executed can lead to brilliant results.
( http://lmgtfy.com?q=operation+frankton )

I'd have to vote for the War of Jenkins' Ear and the Good Friday Massacre of 1622.

@JECE - I did a little research and discovered some more interesting stuff on a variety of websites. I wouldn't include POWs in the Holocaust, though. Otherwise we would add in the British, American, Australian, and other soldiers who died in the Stalags. Attempt to escape and you were shot. The Nazis were particularly good at doctoring up paperwork to show that the escapee was shot while attempting the escape rather than executed after being recaptured.

No, the deliberate mass murder of Soviet POW's is part of the Holocaust. 60% of Soviet POW's died. 3.6% of British and United States POW's died. British and United States POW's were not systematically sent to extermination camps.

lifein2x3: Battle of Cartagena de Indias in War of Jenkins' Ear. :-)