@ Stagger.... you gave your wife the SHRIMP?!?!?!

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

You're in trouble now!
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

I'm under the influence right now, so forgive me...

No matter what you believe, the facts remain...a very large part of ALL current religion owes itself to religions past. In other words, The Bible, The Koran, whatever... are mostly stories. But the common denominator to those stories is simply and easily attributable to mans-interpretation-of-the-stars-and-the-world-around-him. Again, as Warrior mentioned, I refer to the video.

Sorry...this link is more accurate...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3019172997426554977&ei=8YOvSMzlE5Oc-QH6_IimDQ&q=zeitgeist&vt=lf

not really into god, the tooth fairy or pixies but i just wanted to say how civil this debate has been compared to previous non diplomacy forum posts we have had in the past.
jolly good show

Thanks Feckless! That's exactly the kind of religious mentality that Jesus tried his best to debunk, particularly with the Pharisees.

Matthew 15:10-12
"Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

Being a Christian isn't about keeping religious rules, it's about living life to the fullest - in true relationship with others, with all creation, with the Triune God (and with yourself).

- It's being liberated from religious superstitions, from fear (earthly and eternal), from hatred, from greed. It's about learning how live the life God created you to live.

Jesus was the Master of how to live this way, and as his student, I want to learn how to live this way too - from the Best! Even though I know the New Testament rather well, I regularly come to understand more and more what it is that Jesus' teaching was all about, and he continually blows my mind.

Thou shalt be friendly to your neighbor...what diplomacy!

I think that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours ox (goods/stuff/possessions)" is a truer quote.
But the point still stands.

Wouldn't you agree then, Stagger, that the Bible would make a good deal more sense if you Jebus botherers just ditched the Old Testament altogether?

I think my favorite part of the bible is matthew 6

mine is exodus 34:14


oh clod, love you

aoe3rules, is it the universalists that are a very small minority in the christian religion?

Sic
of course thats your favorite part, you're a hobo

stagger
I agree mostly
jesus was truly a wonderful person. one of the few really wise ones

if only Christians were like Christ...
...sigh...

@Feckless: We can't just ditch the Old, because the New wouldn't make nearly as much sense without it.

The New Testament/Covenant does fulfill/supersede the Old Testament/Covenant. That doesn't mean we need to ignore the Old, it just means the new Covenant takes precedence.

The neat thing is, is that the New covenant is mentioned in the Old, so the Jews always knew that the day would come when the Law (Old Testament) would be replaced with something better.

Jeremiah 31: 31ff
"The time is coming," declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers. . ."

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD.

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

@Pandora: "If only Christians were like Christ!" Amen to that! The problem is, people die, new people are born, and becoming Christ-like takes time. The modern church has done a poor job of helping people become Christ-like. Hopefully, the postmodern church will do a much better job; it seems to be doing better so far!

Yes, Christian universalists are a small minority. Note that there are unitarian universalists and trinitarian universalists, and their theology, worship, etc is rather different!

@Sicarius: Yes, this is an awesome teaching by Jesus, and strikes at the religious hypocrisy that he hated. Is there a reason you don't also include Matthew 7?

idk 7 is good I suppose.
I just like 6 alot more


"I like your christ, but I do not like your christians" ghandi

feck, did you read the philosophy gym by stephen law?

So there was a lot there and I didn't read it all but if that one question still stands...

I believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate, second in the Holy Trinity. I believe he was crucified by the Romans upon the pressings of Jewish leaders who disliked his radical teachings. I believe that during this crucifixion Christ underwent insufferable pain and agony, pain equivalent to the combined punishments of all the sins, all the billions of sins that had been and would be committed all to the end of time. He suffered the punishment for all of those. God's just punishment was moved from us, consolidated into one huge punishment and poured out on to a blameless member of the Trinity, who willingly underwent said punishment.

The Triune God, then, resurrected Christ from his grave, whereupon Christ explained what had happened to his disciples and implored them to spread the word the the world, that they might accept the atonement pre-emptively made by Christ Jesus. And so the apostles did, working vigorously and without fear of their own horrifying deaths to spread the gospel far and wide, lest Jesus' sacrifice be in vain.

I believe that every human is infected with evil and will committ inumerable sins even in the shortest of lives. I also believe that the just punishment for even one of these sins is eternity in anguish. Before I continue let me clarify. A sin is an action you KNEW was wrong when you did it, but did it anyway. We have all felt it, doing something wrong, the rush almost that we get, the guilty pleasure when we get away with it and the sinking feeling when we don't. That is sin.

Anyway. Each of us does hundreds or thousands of these and none of us deserves any good turns whatsoever. But God loves us nonetheless and made an unbearable sacrifice for us, which he then planned for humanity to hear and receive. I have heard, and received this message, and I am grateful that I have, indeed, been saved. You may hear Christians throw that word around, saved, but the reason that was the word of choice is because we were indeed saved from an awful fate by a benevolent God.

Now. I believe all of this for a few reasons. One is, the message itself is irresistable; indeed it was designed as such. Two, the Bible has a lot of evidence to back it up. As a historical text it has proved itself over and over, and its accuracy from the ancient text to today is undisputed.

There are thousands of manuscripts, unconflicting, of the ancient books, whereas there exist only a few dozen of the Illiad and Odyssey, and they DO conflict. So I believe the Bible. I will probably we lampooned and roasted because I have holes in this, but that is because I am running late and didn't put a lot of thought into this.

One thing I'll say for sure though, most non-Christians seem not to understand fully the meaning of "died for my sins." It's one thing to intellectually understand, but to fully understand, unbelievers just don't seem to make it there, which, in my opinion, is why they remain unbelievers.

"Oh, the joy of sins forgiven."

It's a wonderful message, and I am happy to see it inspire the people around me to do good things. For that, I can't fault Christianity in general.

However, I'm rather completely on the fence myself about it, for two simple reasons.

1. If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, why is there a punishment system for sin in the first place, such that Jesus had to be sacrificed so that we may live? If God really wants us all in heaven, why can't it just be done that way without regard to "sin"?

2. I refuse to believe that people are totally evil, and I believe that people do not need to believe in any higher being in order to be able to do good things. Sure, it can help, but I think that just as people can define their own evil moral codes-- by which I mean, isn't it nearly always the case that people known to be "truly evil" are such because they ignore the established rules and come up with their own standards?-- so too can people define their own good moral codes, which may or may not entirely agree with those ordained by religions.

But these beliefs I have are the result of individually applied logic and reason, and I can't reasonably expect them to hold for everyone.

@ fraushai - no.

@ Thucydides - "the just punishment for even one of these sins is eternity in anguish" - utter cobblers. Do you really believe that a child deserves an eternity in anguish for stealing a chocolate bar?

A better definition of 'sin', I think, would be an injustice against oneself. An injustice against others would be a 'crime'.

'Good' and 'Evil' are just ideas. They're rationalizations of emotional responses. 'Good' and 'Evil' don't exist outside people's heads. Morality is a matter of perspective. Eating steak is 'good' if you're Stagger, but would be entirely 'evil' if you could get the opinion of the cow. The fact that people believe that their ideas of right and wrong have any kind of objective substance is just a result of binary thinking, i.e. the tendency to view the world in terms of black and white, rather than trying to come to terms with the way it actually is.

Thanks, largely, to literacy and lightning conductors, increasing numbers of people now recognize that the conventions that allow our societies to function (e.g. thou shalt not murder) are just social conveniences, rather than God-given commandments. The fact that many of these people still regard it as proper to respect the beliefs of those who are still blinded by dogma, even when those people insist that it is Yahweh/Allah's will that they should mutate the genitals of their infants, just goes to show that not enough people have heard of Xenu....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu
If you can read that, and THEN tell me that I should respect peoples religious beliefs, even when those beliefs are STUPID, then I'll apologise if I've offended anyone. Probably.

Messy enough for ya? ;)

@Katsarephat - In my view, Thucydides' theology misses the big picture and therefore leaves holes such as those you point out - "If God is loving, why doesn't he just forgive and let everyone into heaven without the need for his Son to die a painful death on a cross."

Thucydides, the theological logic you present/believe has been the primary Protestant version of the Good News for the past 500 years (the Modern Age). But due to it's holes, it is gradually giving way to a Christian Postmodern theology.

See how many "Is" are in your statement: "I have heard, and received this message, and I am grateful that I have, indeed, been saved."

"Individualism" is a Modern phenomena - me, my wants, my needs, my life, etc - and so the Gospel has come to be seen as a means to save Individuals during the last 500 years. About getting each Individual to believe a specific set of theological statements about Jesus and the Bible and getting Individuals into heaven.

In our Postmodern world, we want to leave Individualism behind, because we see how it is harmful for people living in a society. Post-individualism places the focus on people living in community, and Christians are experimenting with new models of community. This was also a primary focus of Jesus and the first Christians.

I have much more to say, but this post is long enough.

@Feckless Clod - I agree with you that "the just punishment for even one of these sins is eternity in anguish" - utter cobblers.

But what are cobblers?

:)

@Stagger: Forget the notion of subverting the system and just forgiving everyone straight up. If God is omnipotent, why not just abolish the system entirely, eliminating the concept of sin-- and therefore, of forgiveness as well?

I'm talking about a radical change, one that would understandably scare the living daylights out of people when they realize what other radical changes God could impose (such as everyone being hellbound no matter what and the whole thing with Jesus becoming a farce). It seems to me that God symbolizes a constancy people want to find in their otherwise chaotic lives-- and for the reason of this convenience, might coincidentally be a human construct. I know many people would like to think not, and I'm not sure I myself will enjoy seeing how many people would find themselves disillusioned in such a scenario. So because of this, people seem to put expectations on God, that God must necessarily be a certain way.

The Old Testament, however, shows us that this is foolish. I'm not going to go into it at this point, but the one constant I could identify is that no matter what God says (i.e., no matter what objective standards of justice you might also want to follow), obeying God is the way to ensure you don't get your ass owned. Even when people seemed to go against the Law as told in Leviticus etc., if it was mandated by God it was okay.

I'm not trying to knock either the Old Law or God when I say that-- all I'm trying to say is that, in Old Testament times, trying to assign a set of standards to God, or expecting a constancy in God, was foolish. I believe that this idea holds even today, but that people seem to cling to the notion subconsciously.

@Stagger re: Feckless's comment: I think he means "bullshit", "twaddle", or "baloney"-- pick one.

'Cobblers', shortened from 'cobbler's awls', Cockney rhyming slang for 'balls' (testicles or nonsense).

(Footwear manufacturers, also, though perhaps not in this context.)

@Katsarephat - God (or us) cannot "eliminate the concept of sin" because sin isn't a concept - it a real thing. Even if you don't believe in a God, you know that people hurt, hate and kill other people.

People, governments, corporations all commit sin - stealing, raping, abusing, neglecting on all kinds of levels. If you don't like the word "sin" then call it "evil" or "unloving self-centeredness."

Whichever word we use, sin/evil is a reality for humanity, not simply a concept. I assume pretty much everyone, regardless of their religious persuasion would agree with this.

@everyone - I've come to realize, that the bigger issue (for God & us) is not sin/evil, but Life. I'm not talking about biological life, I'm talking about True life. The quality of Life that Jesus had, and that he can teach us to live - John 10:10, "I came that they might have life - and have it abundantly!"

We were created out of nothingness, and the Triune God loves us as a parent loves his children, and he does not want us to return to nothingness, but to live (again, not simply biologically) but live in wonderful, loving, joyfilled, creative relationships with everyone and everything else that he has also made.


Returning to the original question of this tread, "Would you be so kind as to tell me (Sicarius) the reasons you are a christian?", a portion of my answer is because in my relationship with the Triune God, the Bible, the church, I am more and more living a Full and Joyful life. I'm not as self-centered and greedy as I was before I became a student of Jesus. I am happier. I haven't had a "bad day" in months. I'm able to be much more generous without feeling hard-done-by. I'm able to forgive other people much more quickly and easily. I care much more about the poor people in our world, and I have the courage to help. I care much more about the environment, and I have the patience to change my life-style to leave a smaller "footprint." I'm much less concerned about trying to be cool, to fit in, to get people to like me - and all of this is very liberating and freeing. I'm free from trying to keep up religious appearances too!

You may get the impression from what I've just said, that I'm turning into some kind of independent, do-it-my-way, kind of guy. But actually, it's the exact opposite. It's about becoming humble - humble in my relationships with others; thinking of them first, listening to their concerns and even their criticisms and realizing the truth of their words. It's about surrendering my agenda for the good of my family, my community, and for God's plan for, not just me, but all of us, together.

Not as self-centered and greedy.... happier.... more generous without feeling hard-done-by.... more caring.... more patient.... less concerned about trying to be cool, to fit in, to get people to....

Jebus.... that's God doing that? I thought all that wuz just about GETTING OLDER.

A friend of mine is fond of saying "open your heart to the free flow of your life." This works. He's not a Christian, either.

Hi Feckless - I can only answer the question ("why am I a Christian?") for me, not for anyone else. I don't think I'd be the person I am unless I was a student of Jesus.

What makes me "believe" are the many answers to prayers, miracles I've experienced, powerful emotional experiences I had, etc,

I can't prove God exists to anyone. Only God can prove himself.

Again, I invite any of you are are atheists or agnostics to do the following as an experiment.

I know that the vast majority of atheists and agnostics do not have the courage to do this, because if God were to respond, it would turn their whole worldview upside down.

Address this questionally-existant Trinue God for yourself - say, "Jesus, if you are alive, prove it to me! If your heavenly Father exists, prove it to me! Holy Spirit, if you exist, touch me!"

It doesn't count if you don't actually speak to this possibly-existant God. If you only entertain this in your mind, without actually addressing him, that's not the same thing at all.

That would be the same as being unsure if someone was in the next room but only THINKING about what you could say and what response you may or may not get, rather than actually saying something to know for sure weather or not someone is there.

@Stagger: Nitpicking at my use of the word "concept"? Lame.

Supposing sin is a real thing. God created all things, yes? Why did God create sin? Or is sin something that is outside of God's control-- something just as powerful as God, in other words?

I have wrestled with this myself. The answer though, is that God did create sin. And he created it because he uses it to achieve his purpose as well as give us alternative paths. The absence of sin equates to the absence of choice. Perhaps not the actual absence of choice, such as, "I want to eat an apple, not an orange," but it would indeed end greater choices like, "Should I endanger my own life for the sake of that stranger?" As a believer I have faith that the current status quo regarding good and evil is the optimized form of events, selecting from every possibility in the imagination of an omnipotent, omnicient God. In other words, what I see happening is exactly what was supposed to have happened, and in the end is the best thing to have happened. If I disagree, this is because I lack perspective, not because I am right. It is like a child questioning his parents, feeling fully justified, when he really isn't.

I remember being in line at a grocery store check-out begging for candy and my mother would refuse, whereupon I broke down crying. Her insensitivity shocked me. Why would she not simply buy it for me? The answer lay in concepts of which I had no understanding, like economic prudence and learning self-discipline. In this way we are like children when we say, "Why did all those people have to go to hell? It's just not fair!" Or when we ask, "How can there be evil in a world created by a good God?"

To Clod, or whoever made the "cobblers" remark originally:

"The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23

For those who question the Bible, see my above argument.

If you are still not convinced, you can apply our limited human reasoning, which for me consists of the following:

Child steals a chocolate bar from store. Child knew he had no right to steal chocolate bar from store. Child stole chocolate bar notwithstanding. Child is thereby sinning. Child has done a wrong, self-serving act, in full knowledge of its malignance. Child *deserves* hell. Chances are, however, child will not go to hell for this single act. Chances are, child has a lifetime previous and following of other sins, many which are much more despicable. In addition, chances are, by the time child dies, he has heard and has been offered the Christian gospel several times, and has fully understood it on each occasion. If after all that he still rejects forgiveness for that which he has done wrong, and that which he *knows* was wrong, he does, yes, deserve to go to hell and suffer there forever. There is a difference between regret and remorse.