"Obiwans logic is that Hamas are killing their own children via the proxy of Israel missiles and the Israelis firing those missiles are innocent."

It's called HUMAN SHIELDS, SYnapse...

And Hamas has ALREADY been found to do this in the past!

I'm sorry can't grasp the concept of a human shield or of Hamas firing from hospitals and UN safe zones being hazardous to the health of children!

You call them facts, but I don't see any proof.
Also, are you denying the fact that the IDF used human shields? Because I have photographic evidence.
Also, if I take a child hostage and the cops throw a grenade in to kill us both, THAT ISNT GOOD POLICING. THE GOAL IS TO SAVE THE CHILD

This is like talking to a 10-year-old.

I'm with SYnapse on this one.

The main issue is that Obi is taking all positions at once. There's no debating him because his logic is tautological. Israel "want to stop" but also won't stop until Hamas is removed. Israel is not under threat from rockets because of the Iron Dome's "90%" success rate, but it has to destroy the rockets in Gaza which are an existential threat. Hamas fires its rocket blindly but also "targets"civilians. Israel is only attacking Hamas but it MUST do that through the death of non-Hamas individuals.

It is entirely untenable that after a week or so of constant bombing that all of the thousands of shells and bombs dropped on Gaza were all 100% completely directed against Hamas targets. He takes the word of every Israel official as gospel no matter what. All he needs to hear is "there were rocket stockpiles there" and the death of innocents is completely fine. He finds one example of a rocket stockpile at a UN school and this is sweeping justification for all Israel bombing and all civilian death everywhere. The most recent attack against a UN charter school because used as a refugee camp had no instances of rockets being hidden. The attack on the Al-Jazeera offices had no affiliation with Hamas at all. The attacks on the homes and individuals in West Bank, WHERE HAMAS HAS NO PRESENCE, are justified for whatever inane reason he can think of.

There's no arguing with that. It's purposeful ignorance.

And that's even barring the fact that Israel sees a school full of refugees over a small stockpile of rockets and believes it is justified in destroying the munitions no matter the cost. Any normal nation would hesitate over such instance, maybe move the ground troops it has spread throughout the city to that location to dismantle the bombs. Israel sees only one option. Complete annihilation.

Right now people in the West Bank are rising up and marching in protest. Already four protesters have been killed by live fire and they won't be the last. Were these people human shields? Did they fire any rockets? All of this is not in response to the aggression of Hamas or outrage at Hamas, but entirely the product of Israel's own aggression. Israel creates its own worst enemies time and time again and it won't stop until they realize they can't murder their way out of this situation.

Chairman how we gonna sustain Western style Capitalism if peace starts breaking out everywhere.
How much GDP does arms export provide?
How many people work in the arms industry?
Who is gonna be putting money into your pension fund if all those companies stop making money?
The bedrock of capitalism is banking and arms, add in a bit of alcohol and tobacco.
Maybe rather than complaining about the IDF and the Israeli govt we should actually be thanking them because if we don't support war honestly where would we be?
Of course in war people die needlessly, that happens in every war, the allies slaughtered loads of innocent Iraqis when over-throwing Saddam.
You know what, maybe Netanyahu is the 2nd coming......

"You call them facts, but I don't see any proof."

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-hamas-civilians-human-shields/18534

"Actually Hamas has made no secret of advocating the use of civilians as human shields to try to face down Israeli aggression.

A senior spokesman for the group, Sami Abu Zuhri, gave an interview on Palestinian station al-Aqsa TV earlier this month.

"He said: “This attests to the character of our noble, jihad-loving people – who defend their rights and their homes with their bare chests and their blood.

“The policy of people confronting the Israeli warplanes with their bare chests in order to protect their homes has proven effective against the occupation… we in Hamas call upon our people to adopt this policy in order to protect the Palestinian homes.”

Credible reports from journalists in Gaza suggest some civilians are choosing to stay in their homes, ignoring warnings of imminent destructions that the Israeli military gives via telephone calls or empty shells “knocking on the roof”.

On the same day as Mr Abu Zuhri was broadcasting Hamas’s message, the New York Times reported the fate of a Palestinian man, Salah Kaware, who received a telephone warning that his house in Khan Younis in south east Gaza was about to be hit by the IDF.

The newspaper reported that another warning came as the occupants were leaving, when an Israeli drone fired a flare at the roof of the three-storey home.

“Our neighbours came in to form a human shield,” Mr Kaware said, with some even going up on to the roof to try to prevent a bombing.

Seven people died in the attack.

On 10 July the UN released a situation report which deplored the civilian casualties but added: “In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”

But the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority’s Ministry of Interior has told residents not to pay attention to the IDF warnings.

It issued a directive “calling all our people not to deal or pay attention to the psychological warfare carried out by the occupation through rumours that broadcast across his media and delivering publications and communications on the phones of citizens”."

And for those not willing to read the quoted article, the video link (different content is in the link from the quoted material above, so these posts go together.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI#t=38

"The attacks on the homes and individuals in West Bank, WHERE HAMAS HAS NO PRESENCE, are justified for whatever inane reason he can think of."

Since I have have TO YOU PERSONALLY said that I CONDEMN Israel's actions in the West Bank...

I have to conclude that you yourself are, as you charge me, either ignorant or willfully ignorant.

I do NOT support the settlers or the Israeli handling of the West Bank situation.

I DO support Israel against Hamas and SPECIFICALLY against Hamas.

Is that clear, or would you care to gloss over that again to make further untrue allegations about me? Would you like em to comb through our tome-length posts and pull out direct quotes wherein I condemn Israel in the West Bank?

So Obi, do you defend the shelling of the UN school by Israel? What's your excuse this time? We all know the crap about their being missiles in the hospital your buddies bombed was a load of nonsense. So how about shelling the UN school? Same story?

Yeah about those warnings...

"The Israeli military first claimed, in a text sent to journalists, that the school could have been hit by Hamas missiles that fell short. Later, a series of tweets from the Israel Defence Forces appeared to confirm the deaths were the result of an Israeli strike.

"Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire."

"Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA's shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10am & 2pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message. Hamas prevented civilians from evacuating the area during the window that we gave them."

Chris Gunness, spokesman for the United Nations Relief and Works agency said there had earlier been "firing around the compound" and his organisation had asked the Israeli army for time to evacuate civilians. "We spent much of the day trying to negotiate or to coordinate a window so that civilians, including our staff, could leave. That was never granted … and the consequences of that appear to be tragic." Gunness said the Israeli military were supplied with coordinates of UN schools where those displaced were sheltering. UN sources told the Guardian a call was placed to the Israeli military at 10.55am requesting permission to evacuate but their call was not returned."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israeli-strike-un-school-gaza-kills-women-children

Today's statistics: on Israel's side 35 have died composing of 33 soldiers and 2 civilians.

At least 800 Palestinians have died with the UN stating the "majority" are civilians meaning at it's least extreme 401 civilians.

That's 200 civilians for every 1. Oh, and a half (let's consider that a baby).

"So Obi, do you defend the shelling of the UN school by Israel? What's your excuse this time? We all know the crap about their being missiles in the hospital your buddies bombed was a load of nonsense. So how about shelling the UN school? Same story?"

That I'd ask you to check your sources--as of yesterday, the United Nations had not formally accused EITHER party of the shelling.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/25/world/middleeast/despite-talk-of-a-cease-fire-no-lull-in-gaza-fighting.html

"The source of the blasts was unclear, setting off recriminations between Israelis and Palestinians over which side was responsible. People in the school reported three to five blasts and accused Israel of shelling them. Israel suggested that rockets fired by militants might have fallen short of their targets or that the school might have been hit with errant shells from either side in fighting nearby. The United Nations said it could not confirm the source of the blasts."

What's more, CNN reported that the impact cite was shallow, and that shrapnel was the major cause of fatalities...not perfectly in line with Israel's more powerful missiles and artillery, but definitely in line with the smaller, shrapnel-filled rockets of Hamas.

So before assigning blame, why not let the United Nations perform an independent investigation? Or would you like to continue to make an ass at of u and me and assume it was one party or another simply because it fits with your political stance?

Way to politicize their deaths, Putin...like a vulture to the impact site, nice.

"Today's statistics: on Israel's side 35 have died composing of 33 soldiers and 2 civilians.

At least 800 Palestinians have died with the UN stating the "majority" are civilians meaning at it's least extreme 401 civilians."

And if not for Israel's Iron Dome, the balance would be more even.

I'm so sorry that instead of a "fair" and "balanced" death toll, one side worked between wars to protect its citizens whereas the other (as I have provided links on) uses them as human shields.

""The Israeli military first claimed, in a text sent to journalists, that the school could have been hit by Hamas missiles that fell short. Later, a series of tweets from the Israel Defence Forces appeared to confirm the deaths were the result of an Israeli strike.

"Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire.""

That isn't confirming they're responsible as, again, the IDF charge is that a Hamas rocket went awry...which would be perfectly consistent with firing from Beit Hanoun and being knocked or blown off course (as these aren't the most accurate rockets) and, again, the nature of the blast site is more consistent with the smaller rockets of Hamas than major Israeli artillery.

"I'm so sorry that instead of a "fair" and "balanced" death toll, one side worked between wars to protect its citizens whereas the other (as I have provided links on) uses them as human shields."

No, you're not sorry. I AM sorry that the side which protects its citizens still feels the need to kill 200.5 innocent people in retribution for a single casuality

"UN sources told the Guardian a call was placed to the Israeli military at 10.55am requesting permission to evacuate but their call was not returned.""

And the IDF told CNN that they HAD returned their calls, and had been asking them to evacuate for the LAST WEEK.

So the UN had a week's notice, frankly...Israel told them a week in advance it'd be a good idea to move those people.

Obi wan, your last post timed 03.29PM, states that the IDF said something, so it is true.

How do you reconcile this? How do I know that what the IDF says is true?

"No, you're not sorry. I AM sorry that the side which protects its citizens still feels the need to kill 200.5 innocent people in retribution for a single casuality"

You're right, I'm not sorry one side can limit casualties and the other side celebrates it.

And when, as my link above described, Hamas describes the practice of human shields as "noble, jihad-loving people," I don't exactly buy that they're doing what they can to protect their citizens and, indeed, WANT civilian casualties...as would befit "noble, jihad-loving people" in their rather warped and tragically suicidal political ideology.

Anyway, I'll be back later, as I actually have jobs...which I am not behind on, lol.

"How do you reconcile this? How do I know that what the IDF says is true?"

You don't and I don't--

But if I get one side saying one thing and another side saying another thing, it becomes He Said She Said and, for me at least, I WAIT until an independent commission rules before assigning blame...unless your main aim here is blame, rather than the actual facts of the case, I urge you to have cooler heads prevail for a change and let an investigation be carried out before you rush to judgment over two equal and equally-conflicting accounts of the events.

Yeah but that's why we have the UN, saying that they are shocked and appalled by Israeli actions in Gaza and by the huge loss of life caused by indiscriminate bombing.

To come back briefly--

And they're also shocked and appalled by Hamas...it's not like they're endorsing them.

Shocked and appalled at what exactly? 2 deaths?

Let's clarify - I'm not talking about he said ,she said, I'm talking about he did, she did. Hamas killed 2 people. Israel killed at least 401 innocents.

Because Hamas is responsible for some of those 401 deaths too, SYnapse...

Because, as I sent not one but two links to you on, Hamas not only has been confirmed to use human shields--which, whatever you think about them, DOES raise the death toll--but CELEBRATES the use of human shields as the practice of "noble, jihad-loving people."

If you accidentally set your baby down behind my back wheels and I accidentally back up over it, *I* have just killed your baby, but YOU, for putting it there in the first place, could potentially be sued for child endangerment, reckless endangerment, child neglect, gross negligence, and potentially even be viewed as complicit in a manslaughter charge.

Now, if you INTENTIONALLY put that baby behind my back tire, because you'd rather those tires hit the baby first before it hits you, then you REALLY have some moral and legal culpability.

Hamas is responsible for some of those 401 deaths via human shields, which they have not only been found to use but admit to and, as shown in the video clip, CELEBRATE using. That doesn't mean that you have to necessarily diminish your blame of Israel for the 401, but it does mean that I think you should hold Hamas more complicit than you do...and the United Nations, by condemning their use of human shields, seems to be of that mindset as well.

You CAN blame two separate groups and their differing actions for one tragedy, you know...it isn't Blame Israeli Misfires or Blame Hamas all the way, you CAN blame both...

Let's be clear, Hamas have not been attributed to more than 2 deaths. Israel has physically ended the lives of 800 people in Gaza, of which 400+ are deemed non-combatants. I don't give a fuck about your concept of responsibility or human shields, I'm talking about physical killing. I can't shoot you in the head and claim you asked for it. I still did the killing.

Hamas have killed 2 innocent people, Israel has killed 401. FACTS.

Using a human shield doesn't kill them. Shooting/bombing them kills them. I'm talking basic rules of causation.