No thank you. No socialism for me.

Irony is, if you raise prices on true luxury items like Lamborghinis and Ferraris, the demand goes up. Or maybe the demand going up allows them to raise the prices. :-)

@Draugnar I don't know if you're being sarcastic but if some degree of socialism is necessary, and the most straightforward approach actually works, then why not deploy it? I don't buy the criticism that it dissuades people from "working"; forcing people into jobs when they don't actually want to do anything at all is a cruel thing to do to employers. What's your take on this besides "smells like socialism"?

Forcing people to work is capitalism at it's finest. If they can't work either because their real efforts to find a job have been fruitless or because they have a disability (old age counts as a disability as does being under 18l them we should care for them. If they can but won't look for work or accept an offered position/won't work, to hell with them. Let them starve and/or freeze.

@Draugnar Again I don't know if you're being sarcastic! Forcing people to work is nonsense. Their laziness is their loss and I'd be happy to pay them to stay out of the way. Some percentage might really be great artists or whatever. As more and more work becomes automated, more and more of us will find our efforts unnecessary for the continuance of civilization. I say we get the non work pilot programs started right away.

Only slightly facetious. I believe the worthy should receive charity but those who simply won't work or try to find a job should be left to their own devices. Where artists are concerned, we should have arts programs that support artists... Wait a minute... We *do* and our tax dollars as well as private donations support them. I know I give 3% to the FAF every year (and another 3% to Salvation Army plus I participate in Toys for Tots as well as volunteer with Habitat for Humanity).

TOO COMPLICATED! Plus as more and more of us find our work completely redundant, non-work won't be a matter of laziness in the face of things that need doing. All of this statistical inference/machine learning stuff is going to have an immense impact on "knowledge work", to say nothing of continuing manufacturing automation. We need to test out what we're going to do.

Bo- brand loyalty is so high a massive price impact won't hurt huh? JC Pennnys begs to differ - almost went under when some brilliant exec decided they would stop having sale prices. Store sales.plummeted and once loyal customers fled. They threw out the CEO shortly thereafter.

Brand loyalty means *nothing* when financial matters.are.in play. The food is hardly worth the price.as is, and families on a tight budget won't spend much more. Let me know when you have a family to feed and start buying groceries for yourself - I don't think you can relate to the reality of this issue. To you its some social/moral.cause. de jour. To a.struggling family its about choosing which bills they can pay, saving for college, etc.

Tendmote - surely you jest...you.would rather pay someone to not work because they decided to be lazy than force.them to work? Wow...I've never heard such truly idiotic words in all my life. BTW...I'm quitting my job - I'll send you my address and financial needs - you can pay me bi-weekly if you like. Well see if you are a.man of our.word or just another mouthy Libtard...

I'm quitting to. And I expect the same 6k a month take home I've become accustomed to.

I would rather pay for a unemployed people enough to survive than have them dying on the streets. I'm amazed that that seems a controversial stance.

Given my druthers I'd be happy if people got the proposed Swiss level of basic income and nobody got in my way for making a far, far larger amount. Flat tax, basic income. Simplify and wring out all the inefficient bureaucracy, just write a check, and it might not cost any more than what we're already paying in taxes. Plus robots don't fuck up your burger. Libtard? I'm just trying to move people out to pasture as soon as they want to go. Krellin, Draugnar, sounds like you're already ready.

@Draugnar no, no you don't get "what you've become accustomed to." You get the BASIC AMOUNT. Flat tax, basic income!

Given my druthers I'd be happy if people got the proposed Swiss level of basic income and nobody got in my way for making a far, far larger amount. Flat tax, basic income. Simplify and wring out all the inefficient bureaucracy, just write a check, and it might not cost any more than what we're already paying in taxes. Plus robots don't fuck up your burger. Libtard? I'm just trying to move people out to pasture as soon as they want to go. Krellin, Draugnar, sounds like you're already ready.

Actually, I don't think I could do without work. Even when I retire, I plan to work until my body or mind give out. I abhor boredom. My plan is to retire then become a fulltime wood worker and master pipe carver.

@Draugnar Now you're talking. So even if you couldn't quite pay the bills with that by itself... with a basic income, you would be able to. In fact you could tide yourself over *until* you figured out how to make the woodworking an going concern. It's good for entrepreneurs. And people making bank on their own would *also* get the basic income. Everyone gets it. Now, I don't know if that's actually feasible which is why I want to see Switzerland try it. But if it actually works, and the motivated don't get taxed into the ground, and no one suffers in dire circumstances... everybody wins. It's worth a try.

My retirement plans are more than already funded with my investments, though. I just cannot accept that lazy ass shits deserve to be cared for. It's a principle thing.

Yeah I know what you mean, but you can't force people to be what they're not. That's also a principle thing. I guess I'm an optimist, I expect civilization to *not* collapse if people are allowed to just sit and watch TV as much as they want.

Martin Luther King favored a basic income.

I agree with mendax.

Does mendax agree with Martin Luther King?

I guess I'm a realist who believes from each according to their ability and to each according to how well they fulfill their ability.

Who will write the video games and create the TV programs and where is the motivation to do such if everyone has a nice warm apartment with TV and grill with hot dogs and hamburgers and a crock pot loaded with chili. Sure, the people who are in the top 10% and drive a Mercedes like me will continue to work, but you tale away the motivation for the cashiers and shock boys at the grocery stores. You take away the motivation of the grips and the best boys on a movie set and the roadies for your favorite band. If you are going to take this approach you have to male the conditions such that surviving is all it is. No niceties. Gruel 3 times a day. Shared quarters with no locks or privacy. If you provide any creature comforts, you take away the motivation for unskilled labor tonwork.

Idk but I share his bemusement that there are literally thousands or millions of Americans who think that if a person will not work, they should starve. This isn't fucking 1609. No one should starve. No. One. Should. Starve. Food is a human right. I don't care if a person is lazy, or a drug user, or a degenerate - they don't deserve to die for it.

Draugnar I am also a realist who understands that the fact of the matter is: we have Americans who starve to death. Maybe in your mind, if you are faced with starvation you will work harder like you should have all along and you will get everything you need.

But in real life, some people work as hard as they can and still starve.

Welcome to the United States. I have been saying for a few years that this is a second Gilded Age, and increasing numbers of strikes like these and talk of working conditions only drives that point home.

Thucy - I have already said that people should be compensated and cared for based on their contribution versus their capability. If someone is totally unskilled and works in an unskilled job, then they shouldn't starve or freeze. But if they refuse to try even though they are capable, them they should starve or freeze. The apartments they love in are owned by someone. That someone deserves to be compensated for the use of my property.

Their property, not my... Freudian slip as I am looking at buying a second investment home.

@Draugnar I think you're overestimating how many stock boys and cashiers we need by a lot. We don't need any cashiers and we can totally be more efficient with the stocking. Inevitably, *we will reduce the need for their work*, because there's more profit when this occurs. Why motivate people for shit that doesn't need doing anymore with the prospect of suffering? Just write them a check and let them figure out what to do with their time.

"we have Americans who starve to death" - from poverty? Or from neglect due to mental illness and drug addiction? The first would be an economic problem, the second a public health problem. I'm not sure the economic version of starvation happens these days.

" But if they refuse to try even though they are capable, them they should starve or freeze. "

Yeah this is the fucked up part I was talking about. What you believe is fucked up. No one deserves to die.

Economic starvation continues to occur, tendmote.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/err-economic-research-report/err155.aspx#.UqKzpmTMofc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_in_the_United_States#21st_century

Like what do you need me to tell you. This is common knowledge, or at least it should be. 1 in 6 people in the United States faces hunger.

"American society has however responded to increased hunger by substantially increasing its provision of emergency food aid and related relief"

Faces hunger in the absence of the aid, I agree. But the aid does exist, which is my point.

"Facing hunger" and "starve to death" are different things.