Blame krellin for saying good Christians have to believe in psychics and ghosts.

Well, to be fair, by definition, Christians believe in a supernatural dimension that cannot be proven.

As much as I dislike krellin's fuckshittery, the sot has a point.

Saying you require proof for psychics and whatnot, but then totally buying off on an invisible sky wizard seems.... inconsistent. :)

Well, maybe. But that's why it's called a faith not a fact.

Invictus, I'm not sure what you mean by "faith not a fact." ??

Its because Mujus blocked me.

He's got an issue when people argue against his worldview.

I am Jack's sense of smirking amusement. :)

Mujus, I was responding to Jack Klein, who you seem to have blocked. It makes sense in context.

Well, unless satellite views of the Earth are conspicuously missing something, there's no vast, lush garden in the middle east guarded by an angel with a flaming sword, so there's that historical inaccuracy...

LAck of exitence now doesn't mean it never existed hecks. I used to own a white 76 Olds Custom Cruiser. It got painted black and used in a demolition derby so is probably a cube of metal or even melted down by now. In short it doesn't exist, but that doesn't prove it didn't exist.

That said, I happen to agree that Eden never existed and a real stufy of the original Hebrew shows that Genesis is actually told as a tale, not a historical record. There is a difference in the way the Hebrews recorded historical facts and allegorical tales much like we record history versus fairy tales or "parables"

@Draug,
Well, given that the expulsion from Eden was for all eternity, can't we conclude that the angel with the fiery sword was also eternal? Otherwise, either God is not unchanging or God's justice is not universal, which would create much larger problems.
Thus, I think it's much safer to accept your larger point, that Genesis includes lots of metaphor and allegory, which is why my original statement was that "while I don't believe there's ... literal truth in it, there's a great deal of wisdom in it."

@Invictus,
"If by "literal truth" you mean historical truth I agree. Spiritual truth it has in spades."

I'd accept the spirit of your statement, but what you'd call "spiritual truth" I'd call "spiritual wisdom," for reason that the word truth denotes objective fact, while the spiritual, though edifying, is almost by definition subjective.

" God is not unchanging or God's justice is not universal"

The monkey wrench in this is that God exists *outside* of time, and does not flow through time as do we. If God knew you before you were created i yoru Mother's womb, this implies that God does not exist in time like you and I. Godby most accounts, is in all places and all times at once...thus He can not change.

But...He certainly "changes" His relationship with Man, the biggest example naturally being the change in relationship with the introduction of the Christ. The relationship requirements changed dramatically at this time, though (...and this is a mcuh deeper discussion) not necesarilly where it counts, which is that belief and faith were *always* the core requirement of a relatioship, including with Adam and Eve - who had a simple command to follow..and that command was based upon belief and faith that God was true to His word.

@Krellin,
That's always been a theological bugbear for me. If God exists outside of time and the nature of God is constant throughout time, then Christ's propitiation would be an established fact from time immemorial, even before the crucifixion. From this perspective, I don't understand why God's relationship to humanity should have changed after the crucifixion. Furthermore, if the timing of the crucifixion did impact God's ability to commute the sentence for humanity's sin, and if mercy is a part of God's eternal nature, why would the Father not have ensured that propitiation immediately after the fall, so as to save the Patricarchs from original sin as well. In short, why would a God who had both the infinite power to save and the infinite mercy to forgive have waited an estimated 3,000 years from Adam to Mary before he carried out the act that satisfied his own infinite justice?

^^^ (though that question may be entirely off-topic, and may necessitate its own thread.)

Man was created in time, and if God revealed the whole truth outside of time - this would imply man has perfect knowledge upon his creation, correct? And therefore why do *anything*, right? Why not just make man perfect, instead of with free will, etc.? I think because He's a jealous God and wants people to willingly worship Him.

So He makes us, give us free will, let's us totally mess up, right? But He knew this, which is why Christ was *always* a part of the game plan. Christ exists before man's creation - so it's not that God changed anything. He just reveals Christ at a certain time. Why then? Who knows?

But the fundamental idea of belief in "Christ" was always a part of the plan. Maybe it wasn't called out specifically as "Christ", but the idea that, "Hey, believe in God, believe that God gives life, have faith...heck, even kill your own son and trust that God will raise him from the dead..." was always a part of the deal. The only thing that really changed was that after Christ, He said, "Just believe in *this* guy...", but before, during and after Christ the only real requirement for a relationship with God was faith, and faith alone.

The animal sacrifice and all that...they were actions demonstrating faith, and had no power in and of themselves.

I'm not sure if thiseven comes close to answering your question - I'm writing between reading boring resumes.. - but I think also your question perhaps can not be answered ever toyour satisfcation in this life. You are essentially trying to establish some operating parameters that your incredibly finite brain can comprehend, and then apply these parameters to a God you call infinite...it's like bug spit on the sun - you can't impact something so large with something so small...you can't understand and infinite God with yor finite understanding.

Is that a cop out? No...it's just reality. And the other reality is the God reveals to you what you *need* to know. You can think about the rest, try to figure it out (and fail...)...but He *has* revealed enough for you to understand what He *wants* you to understand, enough for you to have the relationship with Him that He wants, and that's about it. The rest is thought games...which I think He also encourages.

Why do we only get such a small picture? I don't know...maybe becuse the angels were given much more...more knowledge, more power..and they realyl screed the pooch with it, didn't they?

I just feel like that which has been revealed leaves an inherent contradiction in what we're supposed to understand as the fundamental nature of God. The attributes of God that are infinitely powerful, infinitely just, infinitely merciful, and infinitely unchanging necessarily conflicts with one another. And yeah, I get the fact that that's what makes God God, the embodiment of contradictory things without contradiction, and I get that that's supposedly what makes God impossible to comprehend. But still, when we ask, "How does that work?" and the divine answer is, "Mind your own business," it leaves me deeply unsatisfied.

Hecks, I don't know how old you are, but I'm a father or two daughters. There have been times when I had to punish them, and after giving them a spanking when they were younger I told them I loved them...seems like a contradiction, right? It's not.

There were times when I had to tell my daughters what TO do, and what NOT to do, and at the time they were not old enough to understand all the reasons why, but I knew because of my age and experience...and violation of these rules - which could endanger their life - resulted in punishment.

The point - we go through life never knowing all, living at all times with thigns that sometimes appear to be contradictions that aren't...and they aren't because we simply don't have the full picture.

To get political, Conservatives say "cut welfare, cut subsidies...it's better for them" and the Liberal says, "You heartless bastard...they'll starve and die..."

Under Clinton just this very thing happened...welfare was cut, subsidies reduced, and the prediction of people dying on the street never came to fruition. Republicans have a vision larger than the Liberals...so the seemingly contradictory statement of "cut benefits -- it's good for them" was in fact a truth, because it got people off their asses and self-motivated to care for themselves, instead of waiting for a handout.

Truth is not always evident, and not everything you perceive as a contradiction is so.

We are required to have "faith" in God -- believing in something that can't be seen - exactly because we don't' have all the answers. Belief with absolute knowledge is not faith. But God says I've given you enough...I've given you creation, I've given you sub-atomics, I've given you life that makes no sense that shouldn't exist - I've given you enough to believe...so have a little faith that what I say is Truth...because it's all rigth in front of you. (And yes, Hebrews references sub-atomics at a time when no such thing could be comprehend...there world is held together by things unseen...)

Back to how psychics aren't real...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcPuRaSEq1I

What's a psychic?

@Krellin,
As to how old I am, I'm old enough and have been married long enough to have children, but I don't, nor likely will we.
I choose to ignore your political metaphor in the interest of not making this a political thread.
But perhaps you're right that it does all come down to faith. What my age and experience has taught me is that often things that seem inexplicable have explanations, and it's usually a good idea to keep asking why. The suggestion that one should take things as presented without asking for more is... difficult.
Can you give me a reference for sub-atomics in the book of Hebrews? I've not head that claimed before, and would like to check it out.

A psychic is either a con artist or a crazy person.

So you are old enough to comprehend that children being disciplined often perceive discipline and love as contradictory, and that children can not always comprehend the bigger picture. We are God's children.

Yeah...the policital analogy was perhaps a cheap shot, and yet a *clear* demonstration that in adult society, we often just don't understand and can't see the whole picture before us, even though we have historical evidence, etc...we get blidned by ideology, feelings, etc

Hebrews 11 New International Version (NIV)
Faith in Action
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, *****so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.***

The world is made out of invisible things...sub-atomics.

Invictus - debating on the existence of something you refuse to even define is childish.

Hecks - the entire chapter is an astounding discussion of faith and essentially what I was referring to earier about how the deal has *always* been the same, before, during and after Christ.

During Christ's walk, His "healing" of peole was often (more often than not?) because of the faith of the person touching him...they touch Him, *believing*, and were healed.

Fine. From Wikipedia:

a person who claims to have an ability to perceive information hidden from the normal senses through extrasensory perception (ESP), or who is said by others to have such abilities.


I don't really understand why you needed that, though.

"...or who is said by others to have such abilities...."

OK OK - by your choosen definition psychics exists, because many people ARE identified BY OTHERS to have these powers.

Are you drunk?

@Krellin,
The link between the verses you posted and subatomics is tenuous at best. I (and the church I grew up in) have always taken it to mean that the temporal world is made manifest only through its spiritual reality, and that the world is constantly being acted upon by angelic and demonic forces. What is seen (the temporal world) is made up of invisible forces (spiritual warfare).

I was hoping you would point to some verse that said something to the effect of "And lo, all things visible are made of smaller things, beyond human sight, and those in turn consist of combinations of other smaller elemental things. And verily, these smaller things are comprised of yet smaller things, some of which hath a positive charge, and do cleave to things with a neutral charge. And yea, there also be things with a negative charge, which do whirl around the positively charged things at incomprehensible speed. And forsooth, all of those are made up of even smaller things, which do exceed the scientific expertise of Hecks."

Invictus - Are you illiterate? Can't read your own definition?

Hecks - I will accept your interpreting AS WELL... :) Far be it from God to put a double meaning in a verse, eh?

God is the original scientist - keep that in mind - He created physics and the universe physics controls. That the clergy often failure to see the science of God's world is a fault of the clergy and the preachers, not a weakness in the Bible.

:)