I agree.

""And the cord is cut after the baby is out of the womb. When is the baby a person and no longer eligible for abortion? Please enlighten me."

When it's out of the womb."

So you are OK with partial birth abortions where the baby is half born and it's skull crushed. The head is out but the body still in and you are OK killing it... Good to know. I wish your mom had considered that with you.

Krellin, i was just yanking your chain a bit. ;-)

Obi, has france only existed since the creation of the fifth republic? Has russia only existed since the fall of the ussr?

Just because our legal regime of government was formed in 1787, doesn't mean our nation began then

perhaps a more useful comparison is Germany circa 1871 than france and Russia, as both were independent nations previously. Prior to 1787 there wasn't a single nation in any way analogous to the USA.

Also, referring back to the original topic, it is beyond me how people in the most christian nation on Earth can consider there to be a war on christianity in any meaningful sense.

just because the nation is so called Christian does not mean that there are not powerful entities such as the media and Hollywood that are aggressively fighting against Christian principles and trying to make Christians feel intimidated about publicly professing their faith. wars have a beginning and we are at the beginning

Poe's law is really kicking in strongly here.

Krellin:

And if there is so much oppression Christians in this country, I'm sure you can come up with an example or five. Please show me how Christians are being prevented from being able to pray or exercise their religion.

What I'm asking for is proof. I'm aware that asking you to back up your assertions is a long shot, but hell, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Ok let's compared the way Christianity gets treated to some other minority faiths. For example I've faced some harsh criticism and oppression myself. Or just take at the way any person of the Islamic faith or Hindu etc etc is treated.

I have no problem respecting the christian faith, but I ask for that same respect back. More often then not I don't receive it however.

Jack, I could come up with more than 5, but it would make any difference to you.

I ALSO pointed out that we are at the *beginning* of this war, and it is being fought on the front lines by the Media and Hollywood, amongst other.

When Hitler conquered most all of Europe, it was not instantaneous...I'm certain that even your perverted little mind can comprehend that fact, Jackass.

Celtic -- I will agree 100% that the war is not on "Christianity" per se - but on religion as a whole. Hollywood and the Media despise all faith, and embrace atheism in all it's forms, starting first and foremost with worship of the earth and "creation" above all -- though to them "creation" is the accidental existence of life.

Wow, and there's a Godwin. because apparently the treatment of Christians in the USA is comparable to Hitler conquering most of Europe. You heard it here first.

Also -- I don't know any Christians that would deny you the right to practice your faith. I know Christians that would want to discuss your faith and may (gasp!!) even try to persuade you to accept their faith -- an act that is done out of love, because they think your eternity is doomed without their particular belief and they seek to save you -- but I know of no Christian personally that wishes to prevent anyone from practicing their faith -- including atheists -- because we realize that prohibit others from practicing their faith means ours is next.

I'm not saying such Christians don't exist - but I'm saying they are not within my circle of acquaintences.

I'm sure Jack and the other blowhards will come up with examples to contradict me....whatever...froth froth froh...

I will then point that the fingers on my hand are not sufficient to count the times over the years I have heard (read) atheists in these forums say that adults that teach their children their faith should have their parental privledges revoked, as if passin gon a faith is somehow a crime....so the hate of other's faith is prevelant in any brand of religious belief (and yes, atheist is a religion....that is what I am saying...atheism requires a fantastic amount of faith, but I'll discuss that another day, perhaps).

Celtic - I'd actually be fascinated to discuss your religion some time if you want....just not here or now, because I'm about to leave for the casino...

g'night!

Well I should point out it's mostly Christians that give me the hardest time. For some reason since I'm a decent human being and like to be nice and be caring that means I must be Christian. When I nicely, and I really do mean nicely, tell them I don't attend church and that I'm Wiccan I get told either A) I'm going to hell B) That they'll just have to change that or C) But your so nice. Also, I was asked not to either mention my faith during the holidays or wear my pentacle by a really religious former manger. Cause you know those things offended her.

I know that's not necessarily a reflection on the Christian faith but it does leave a bad taste in my mouth for that faith.

Night Krellin and sure about discussing, but honestly I'm not all that formal in my faith. I'm more spiritual then anything else. I'm also quite eclectic with my faith. A good principle to believe in is always a good thing to strive for.

Also I do want to point out there's extremists in any faith Krellin. Just because a few vocal atheists make some unreasonable demands doesn't mean all of them do. Let's take a look at a few of the more extreme Christian groups.. Pat Robertson or the Westboro Church for example. Should we judge all of Christianity based of them?

I just don't think you can, Krellin.

Please tell me how Christians in this country are prevented from exercising their faith? (and if you say because you're not allowed to impose your religion on others, you fail at life).

I asked, and you've evaded. Go ahead, show off how mean and unreasonable I am. If there is systemic oppression of Christians in the USA, then I'm sure 5 isn't a tall order at all.

However I don't think you'll come up with 5 that can hold water. I invite you to prove me wrong.

She was a manger CF? With shepherds and animals and Mary and Joseph and a babe wrapped in swaddling clothes? Well no wonder they offended her. :-)

@Draug Manager Oh King of Typos ;)

The question though, for real CF, is if her stated reason was it offended her or if it was that the customers had said something. If the former, you have a good discrimination case if she wore crosses and shit. If the latter, not so much as it could affect the store's business.

I think she was waiting for a customer to say something. She had express her disapprove of my faith in the past. I had been contemplating what exactly to do, but the she was transfered to another store.

Also, if I have to remove my symbol of faith then other would have to as well. It's discrimination otherwise.

If she requests it for personal reasons, yes. If customers complain in writing, no. Management can say "certain symbols are bothrring.our customers and are therefore banned" and it isn't discrimination or a violation of your religious freedom because workplace rules aren't laws and don't affect your practicing your faith outaide the workplace.

In fact, if you were native American where peyote is used ritually, they couldn't forbid you using.it even though you wojld fail a drug test as long as you didn't come.to work.hallucinating.

Yes but in this situation Starbucks policy does say that I can wear my pentacle. The company itself doesn't discriminate. Also it was a singular customer who was also offended that we were open on Christmas (everyone on that day are volunteers), Sundays and I should of been fired and she should of hired a good Christian girl. You get my drift.

Yeah. She should have told the customer what Starbuck's policy was and never even said a word to you. If it had kept up, I would have contacted corporate n your shoes. But it sounds like the problem took care of itself. Hopefully the new boos isn't the same as the old boss (to borrow a turn of a phrase from The Who).

I liked that manager too outside of that. The next one I wouldn't of dared asked if I could wear it since she was trying to get rid of everyone who she didn't hire. My current one says it's fine but I wanna find a new pentacle first.

I do wanna ask.. have you ever heard of a Christian being asked to not wear their cross? I personally have never seen that and honestly hope to never see it.

My viewpoint is I don't care who you worship as long as your a good person and treat others like you want to be treated.

> Management can say "certain symbols are bothrring.our customers and are therefore banned" and it isn't discrimination or a violation of your religious freedom

Incorrect. That would be illegal under Title VII.

"An employer must allow the wearing of religious garb and paraphernalia or other appearance issues unless it creates a safety issue or otherwise tangibly interferes with the employee’s accomplishment of the work."
http://www.boardmanclark.com/reading-room/religion-in-the-workplace/

Actually, my wife worked in a Jewish nursing home for a time and was *told* not to wear her cross. She just tucked it inside her blouse as she never takes it off.