Agreed, invictus. IT comes down to what happened that night. And part of what happened that night involves motivation. There has to be a "hatred" aspect to invalidate Florida's "Stand Your Ground" defense. I have seen no evidence of hatred to ward sthe individual or towards the race of the individual. What I have seen is an individual looking out for his neighborhood who saw a suspicious person (late at night, in the rain, walking through a neighborhood he didn't live in) and another individual who reportedly did have some racial hatred (calling GZ a cracker - a racially derogatory term - to his girldfriend on the phone for instance) and a tragedy resulting from stupidity (not following directions of the 911 dispatcher) and that racial hatred TM.

Now, if credible evidence comes out showing GZ did have a hatred specific to TM or that he was, in fact, racist, then let him rot in a cell. But barring that evidence, this was a tragedy that GZ will still have to live with the rest of his life. You don't take a man's life and it not affect you forever.

When's your SVU College of Law reunion?

All other factors aside, If I were in Zimmerman's position at the moment that he decided to fire (assailant on top of me, bashing my head into the sidewalk, nearing unconsciousness, in danger of being disarmed) I would have fired too.

The whole incident was probably just a failure to communicate with tragic results. Zimmerman should have stayed in his car, but he didn't. Leaving his car and tailing Martin for a short distance was not a crime. Martin should have verbally confronted Zimmerman before physically attacking him. Words are *always* your first line of defense. Zimmerman should have done a better job of identifying himself before Martin attacked him.

I can't blame Martin for attacking Zimmerman and I can't blame Zimmerman for shooting him.

"I can't blame Martin for attacking Zimmerman and I can't blame Zimmerman for shooting him. "

Like I said, a tragedy. No blame to be laid. A man died. Was it avoidable? Certainly. In fact, it was avoidable by both parties. But only in hindsight.

@Invictus - A law degree isn't required to understand the law anymore than a degree in physics is required to understand E=MC^2.

You can't blame Martin for attacking Zimmerman? Good god...give me a fucking break. Here's an option he didn't try if he felt someone was following him: RUN!

What sort of a fucked up world do we live in where everyone bitches and complains about bullies and shit all the time....but then we want to give this punk kid a pass on attacking the guy that was following him (alledgedly). TM ALSO had a cell phone -- did he ever dial 911 and say someone was following him?

Sorry...but one person was on neighborhood watch - which is an honorable, good thing. He may have been overly aggressive in his watching of Martin, but it doesn't justify him being attacked. We also know from the State's star witness that TM told HER -- using racial ephitaths, etc -- that TM had a bit of a grudge on HIS shoulder, and perhaps was racially motivated in HIS attack on Zimmerman...

TM wasn't some just some delightful innocent kid, and you don't walk in to a hornet's nest and then bitch about getting stung. Too bad he got stung with hot lead after he poked the nest with a stick...but hey, sometime the hornet's are Africanized...

@ krellin

Chill the fuck out. For the record, I believe Zimmerman is innocent by reason of self defense (justifiable homicide)

If Zimmerman isn't acquitted and I was president, I would pardon him in a heartbeat.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/01/CNN-broadcasts-Zimmerman-social-security

They were already on a 7 second delay since they bleeped out swears and the word "cracker," but let Zimmerman's Social Security number out? The outrages keep mounting up.

That's CNN for you. Weren't they the ones who let the name of rape victim who was also a minor slip out.

I don't know if anybody has mentioned this already here, but I encourage everyone here to take a look at Mr. Zimmerman's non-emergency call to the Sanford Police Department before the shooting. If anybody was up to no good, it was Zimmerman. You can see the transcript and hear the call here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Shooting_and_investigation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8

It's scary that people like that are allowed to run around with loaded guns.

"Here's an option he didn't try if he felt someone was following him: RUN! "

Actually, he *did* run. Zimmerman says so. Zimmerman chased Martin down.

I reopened this thread just because I saw Abge had the last comment and I was hoping for a touch of reason in this inflamed debate.

I wasn't disappointed.

+1 Abge.

Oh! And I remembered something I wanted to say to Draug:

You invited me to live somewhere else.

I actually already do.

And in my country, or at least in my province (though I want to bet it's the case across the country as well since we all share the same criminal legal system), we don't have armed citizens walking around pretending to be some kind of authority they're not. We actually have laws against that.

That whole case is getting much attention because it's actually saying something about the way Americans relate to guns, violence, and their idea of safety.

Abge is wrong. There is no evidence so support that he *ran*. Martin *may* have run to catch up to him, but even the "star witness" didn't say TM tried to get away.

Sorry -'face the facts, people: the thug teenager was more than happy to tryto beat up the cracker...just didn't realize that after slamming Zimmerman's head on the ground he was gong to ethis ass shot.

Lets stop pretending that TM is some inoccent kid...no innocent little kid I know is either physically capable capable or violently skilled enough to get the upper hand on a grown man like that..nor is an innocent kid emotionally capable of engaging in such violence. TM was *no stranger* to commiting acts of violence to do what he did to Zimmerman.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-creepy-ass-cracker-final-moments/storynew?id=19490796#.UdIT8qq3PMI

If Florida had an open carry law everything would change.

I'm tipsy ... so maybe I shouldn't write this... but meh!

Anyone who says that this unarmed dude dying is just his damn fault is a person I will not engage with again.
First you presume of his guilt (something you refuse to do in the white dude's case).
Second, you obviously support the idea that it is okay to carry a weapon and shoot to kill when in a fist fight and... losing. Cause that's really the best case you can make. In my humble opinion, Zimm at least had the responsibility to warn TM that he was armed. Had he done so... I doubt we'd be having this discussion.
And third: I just can't understand this fascination some of you have with guns. The second amendment thing seems to make you blind to the most obvious demands of humanity. A guy is dead, shot by another man.

This was never a fair fight.
His life was never in danger.
The facts prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.

What facts? The fact that the dude who didn't have a gun is dead. And you're actually making my case stronger by saying that he had the upper-hand in the fist fight, if there was one. You are, because you're proving that were we had somewhat of a fair fight for a bit (TM was how old? And Zimm? And have you read on muscle growth?), when the gun was pulled, we didn't anymore.

This is one of the first debates where some of you are actually making me feel a bit sick.

And I was expecting better of you on this Draug, to be honest. I don't know what your motivation is here, but god damn it... A man lost his life and you're all, like, "his fault". I'm really disappointed... and I need to stop reading this thread.

"Shit. He's running" -George Zimmerman

In Fla there is no obligation to tell someone you are armed unless you are a convicted felon. In which case, you are already breaking the law.

He may have run at one point....when he decid to ambush Zimmerman and bash hishead against the ground....he was not running. At that point, precious little thug TM was looking to add a cracker notch to his hoodie.

There was no ambush. And why are you so racist, krellin?

The more I hear about the trial, the more I laugh at the defense's opening joke...

Cachimbo...you are right that it was not a fair fight...not even a fist fight. Sweet little Trayvon had Zimmerman on his back pinned to the ground and was smashing his head in to the pavememt. Haven't watched plenty of Youtube video and such of teensbeating the hell out of people...I think Zimmerman had every right to fear for his life. After the first coule of ground pounds TM commitment, when Zimmerman was screaming like a bitch for help...sweet little TM decided to continue pummeling him.

Then he got his bitch ass shot like he deserved AT THAT POINT in time.

Also, since you freely acknowledge thr American gun culture (which no doubt sweet TM was fully aware of too.) there is no need to warnof a gun - it should be presumed. That's why you dont fuck with and attack people that you think you might a security guard...or crazy cracker...following you.

TM got what he was asking for.

I find it fascinating how you completely ignore the fact that Martin could have never gotten into an altercation with Zimmerman if Zimmerman hadn't knowingly and willingly put himself into an extremely dangerous situation.

> Trayvon had Zimmerman on his back pinned to the ground and was smashing his head in to the pavememt.

No he didn't.
http://www.newser.com/article/da76po703/neighbor-says-he-didnt-see-anyone-head-slammed-into-sidewalk-in-zimmerman-martin-fight.html

TM initiated the physical confrontation. It is fascinating how you think it is acceptable for sweet little TM to attack a grown man because he was following him, especially sice he was close to his home.

@gavrilop -- there were multiple witnesses. the star defense witness DID see TM on top of Zimmerman. Seriously...how thefuck else did hishead get bashed and scrtched up in the back, and his ose punched and bleeding. Did Zimmerman beat hiselfup? lol Get real man. Enter reality. If the situation was reversed and white man dead and black kid beat up, you'd be screaming self defense and marching in the streets.

George Zimmerman repeatedly made phone calls to the police describing black males as suspicious in the months before TM's death. Time and time again he showed himself to be profiling young black men, and he had been fired from a previous job for racist bullying. His title as neighbourhood watch co-ordinator was unofficial and self-appointed. He wasn't even acting in his neighbourhood watch role at the time of the shooting. Let's face it, the claim that you're acting in self defence against a unarmed teenager who you're stalking through the night as he walks in his father's fiance's neighbourhood is an odd, incredible claim at the very best, and every singe piece of evidence that has come to light since casts further doubts on his story to the point where it would be laughable that anyone seriously believes is, if it weren't for the fact that it is so deeply troubling, and so symptomatic of a culture suffused with both rasicm and violence.

Yes, you read that right, this is about race. We all know that if the races of the TM and GZ were reversed there'd be no chance that the stand-your-ground claim would be sufficient defense. For example, in Florida a black woman was being attempting to flee her abusive husband, and fired a warning shot to scare him off. She got 20 years.

I didn't say Martin was blameless. I said that Zimmerman purposefully put himself into danger so he could orchestrate a situation in which he could act like a vigilante.

> there were multiple witnesses.

And the others said Zimmerman was on top.

> he star defense witness DID see TM on top of Zimmerman.

That's what I linked to. The guy you're talking about, he said Martin was not hitting Zimmerman's head against the pavement.

> Seriously...how thefuck else did hishead get bashed and scrtched up in the back

Probably from simply falling down. Since the fact is Martin wasn't hitting his head against the pavement.

> If the situation was reversed and white man dead and black kid beat up, you'd be screaming self defense and marching in the streets.

No, not if the black kid stalked the victim.

Zimmerman stalked Martin and decided to murder him. He is guilty. He shouldn't have stalked the victim. But Zimmerman wanted a fight and he went out to make one happen. He has a history of violence, he didn't like black people being in his neighborhood, and he decided he was going to make one pay. He's a racist murderer.

"Zimmerman stalked Martin and decided to murder him."

Funny how he's not charged with that.

This thread is so depressing.