Oct +1 - The problem is (and I give credit to Obi for this) that too many people aren't willing to even try to get a job "below their station" and too many employers won't hire "overqualified" individuals for fear the economy and job market for skilled positions will turn aroudn and this person will jump ship. As long as unemployment keeps getting extended and these employers are allowed to turn down the most qualified candidate because of "overqualification" we will continue to have the unemployment problem we have.

But I digress from the topic of the thread.

By the way, I meant I give credit to Obi for *not* being willing to look for any kind of work. He was willing to do whatever it took to get any job he could and I applaud that.

Thanks Draug...I just wanted a job, any job...

I really hope I don't fail miserably at it, there couldn't be a job any more outside my purview of experience or abilities (I'm used to the indoors, a formal setting, and dealing with words...I look over grad students' essays for spare cash...so working outside filling up inflatable tubes and dealing with kids...yeah, I have no idea how I'm going to do this, lol, but at least it's a job and money to start saving.) :)

@orathaic,

"Gender identity is hard-coded at an early stage of development, just as sex organs are hard-coded at one point, and sexuality (though it does not usually express itself until puberty) how we express these three things varies with culture and upbringing - how a penis actually looks like will depend on things like circumcision, but that is just a superficial difference, like the influence society has - society may define gender norms, but the brain is hard coded to identify with one or other (or none or both) of those genders. "

For somebody who claims to be a philosophical skeptic, you sure have a lot of cut-and-dried opinions on extremely complicated, poorly understood areas of science. Is it that once you accept one thing you can't justify, you just go ahead and accept any thought that flits through your head?

I would ask ora to back.up his claim about where gender identity starts but I somehow doubt he would anyhow. Noticed how his hard and firm "ladyboys get killed in men's rooms" changed the moment I asked him for three cases or two studies.

Draug the idea that gender is created by social pressures is conjecture at best. For all we know it is completely genetic.

A lot of psychology is also conjecture, regardless of what you minored in.

"DICKed people HAVE a right to go to the bathroom with all the DICKs excrete.
VAGINA'd people have a right to go to the bathroom where all the vagina's are, and they have the right to be free of dick in their private moments. YOU are tryign to take that right away"

Where are you getting these rights from? Nobody has declared them. They don't exist.

@Draug: Trans women do get killed (and raped and disfigured) at a higher rate than the average woman (or average population) - Going into men's toilets puts them at risk of being outed.

I'm not backing down on my claim that this risk is worse than a little discomfort. (and note i'm not saying anyone who says they are trans, i am saying anyone who presents as female in their day-to-day lifes - taking to presenting as their identified gender daily is something which takes most trans people, but particularly trans-women, a long time because they don't want to go out unless they think they will pass as female - which has surprisingly little to do with the number of penises they have)

@smeck, the position of a philosophical skeptic is the standard position for an scientist. I don't see how taking the little science i know and talking about it is in any way countrary to that position.

- I will admit it is a hard area of science to study, but i also know that cis-gendered people don't often come out and change their gender identity as adults. While trans-gendered people often identify as the opposite gender before puberty (anecdotal)

@Draug, yes, the youth psychology is also a thing, as are XX female-identified tomboys, who go onto become women. But the fact that there is a parental and social influence doesn't change the fact that there is also a gender identity (though some people identify as gender fluid, or agendered) I identify as male, i happen to like women, and i also happen to have male sex organs. I'm about as lucky as i could be because being in the majority society readily accepts me as normal, that doesn't mean I should discriminate against those who are not so lucky.

There is still a horrible level of sexism going on, women have earned the priviledge of dressing like men (suits, pants etc) in public; but men are ridiculed for dressed like women in public. (with the exception of as a joke - which implies that men who want to be women are a joke) Trans-men are in a much better position, the can get away with presenting as male and if they don't pass they also don't suffer the same level of persecution.

And when it comes to toilets, I don't see the same scream to keep trans-men out of male toilets. Again, because it seems this is driven by a fear of the penis. It is penises that you want kept out of women's toilets/changing rooms/whatever. It is a fear of the terrible damage a penis will do to the women in these locations. Your daughters, sisters and mothers... This too is sexual discrimination. We don't hold our sons, brothers and fathers to the same standards. We require that the be manly enough to protect themselves.

Why is there so much fear of the penis? This is plain sexism, and sure you can 'fix' this double standard and hide it by passing a law which applies equally, but that doesn't mean you are an less sexist.

More to the point though, you are discriminating against trans-people when you happen to be in the lucky position of not being trans. A majority of males fighting to protect their females from the horrible sight.

And to be honest - "but it[THE DREADED PENIS] is still there for all the little girls who happen to be there with their moms changing to go swimming." - When i was a child and going to the local swimming pool with my parents, i often went into the womens changing room with my mom, or saw little girls in the men's changing rooms with their dads.

Guess what, it has never been a jot of a problem! You are making an issue out of this because you're scared, and when women bring this up as an issue I will be more likely to listen and consider it thougthfully. (of course in an ideal world my solution would be unisex bathroom/changing rooms, but alas we live far away from an ideal world...)

@orathaic,

"
@smeck, the position of a philosophical skeptic is the standard position for an scientist."

Not at all. Many scientists will deny certain knowledge of anything, but few will deny even probabilistic knowledge of anything, as a skeptic must.

"I don't see how taking the little science i know and talking about it is in any way countrary to that position."

Anyway, I guess you're not a skeptic after all, as you had said you were, or you wouldn't be using the words "I know" here.


"I will admit it is a hard area of science to study, but i also know that cis-gendered people don't often come out and change their gender identity as adults. While trans-gendered people often identify as the opposite gender before puberty (anecdotal) "

Anecodtal evidence and "don't usually" is a very different thing from saying "the brain is hard-coded to identify with one or other (or none or both) of those genders." There's a huge amount of room between those claims.

Well, as a coda, I might as well say now--

I won't be working after all.

They released me from my position before I even got to work a day on the job.

They won't even tell me why.

Wow, that totally sucks, obi. Even moreso that they won't tell you why. :-(

@ora - First you say you have nothing to back up your claim, now you are insistent it is true when, in fact, someone else posted an actual study that showed their rate of attack is no higher than a gender matching person and actually lower than gay men.

Then you talk about gender identity over all and dodge my specific statement about *children*.

Seems to me you don't wish to actually back up your statements with fact or counter the arguments I present in any way so this is a waste of time.

@Draug, have you backed up your counter claims? I mean, sure it is up to me to provide evidence that my claim is correct, but discussing this is worth while if we've both got ideas to discuss. (oh and here's a terrible link: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/ )

And my point about gender identity was that we're talking about different things, your specific statement was about kids liking one parent more than another. Well you are right, kids are heavily influenced by adults, and their parents - but maybe quoting wikipedia will do:

'Genetic variation, hormones, and differences in brain functioning and brain structures provide evidence for the biological etiology of the symptoms associated with GID. Twin studies indicate that GID is 62% heritable, evidencing the genetic influence in the development of the disorder.[11] In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is associated with variations in an individual's genes that make the individual less sensitive to androgens.[9] Zhou et al. (1995) found that in one area of the brain, male-to-female transsexuals have a typically female structure, and female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male structure.[12] In addition, some aspects of trans women's hypothalamus functioning resembles that typical of cisgender women.[13]' - built into the brain, 62% genetic (leaving the rest which could be environmental, as in determined by levels of hormones in the womb, or indeed social/psychological)

Your statements are not untrue, but i don't think they are relevant. I think what you are talking about is expression, which is mediated by culture, not identity.

@Smeck: perhaps I use the word 'know' in common english despite the fact that I believe i can't know anything. I often act like i know things despite the intellectual position i hold. I don't feel i have anything to gain from thinking i know nothing the whole time, so i skip that step. It's like adding 'where-ever i say know interpret that to mean i act as if i know even when i can know nothing' - b'ah,

Orathaic,

Indeed. I was just remarking on the curious juxtaposition of somebody who, on the one hand, believes he can know nothing; and on the other hand, asserts knowledge of things that even ordinary people would not say any evidence supported.

As I remarked, this suggests that you have skipped straight from skepticism to a functional framework whereby whatever you assert can pass for known truth (modulo some silent disclaimers).

Incidentally, since it now seems once again that you really are talking about philosophical skepticism, I'll just say once more that, contra your earlier claim, extremely few scientists are philosophical skeptics.

@semck, Yeah sorry, i may have mis-spoke, or mis-thought. The majority of scientists are empiric... empiricists, believe in empirical knowledge, while trying to keep skeptical so they can be creative and progress in science.

But there would be no point in progressing science if you are a philosophical skeptic - still i don't live like a philosophical skeptic, i merely believe in philosophical skepticism while operating as if i didn't (because i can't find any operational direction from philosophical skepticism)

Meanwhile, the 'things that even ordinary people would not say any evidence supported.' - i found evidence for in 3 minutes of actually looking.

Twin studies showing a large genetic component generally supports my claim that it is largely not about the psychology which Draug was claiming.

Those studies were of adults. I talk of children as the example given was about a 6 year old (so a very relative question and hypothesis). Has thos so called trans-woman 6 year old been studied in that detail and.found to be genetically female.by the brain chemistry and neural pathways and hypothalmus activity (which aren't actually genetic despite wikipedia's claims - show me a gene or a series of genes that makes one a trans woman or a trans man). I still assert than a child of 6 hasn't discovered the use for their equipment beyond its stimulation feeling good (little girls riding ponies and little.boys playing pocket pool) and therefore are mor influenced by their parents showing a predisposition, even.unconciously, such that the child.is influenced to please mommy and daddy. Oh and I never said the child picks one parent over another. I used two examples that happened to involve one or the other parent, but two liberal.parents (not intended as a slur, just a description of their philosophical views) might well unintentionally have their sone choose girls stuff or their daughters choose boys stuff at that young age. Once they discover sexuality and then choose to continue or even decide to adopt the appearance and life style of the other gender, that is where the nearal.pathways and hyppthalmus come.into play.

But even then, that isn't genetic as the brain.is very malleable at a young age and having been living as the opppsite sex may well have turned what you see as causation into result. This may be just correlation and nothing more.

But I have a wedding to attend this weekend with all the events around it where a nice, clean cut young man is going to marry my beautiful and very feminine niece.

"I still assert than a child of 6 hasn't discovered the use for their equipment beyond its stimulation feeling good" - ok, but you're talking about sex, not gender. I don't disagree with what you're saying, just that we're not talking about the same thing.

And yes, the twin studies of adults do indicate that genetics is not 100%, there must be some environmental/developmental factor influencing this brain development, but I suspect that gender identity is hard-wired in, while gender expression is learned and more fluid. (though there still exists a group who do not identify as trans- but instead as gender fluid - so i have to note that i'm not talking about them, as we're specifically talking about trans-issues)

I do not think sex drive is particularly influenced by parents, how you behave with your innate sex drive will be - you can choose to be celibate while still being homo/hetero-sexual, just as you can choose to wear male-typical or female-typical clothes and still be cis/trans-gendered.

So my claim is that 4-6 years olds know what gender they identify with, and i suggest you ask any nieces or nephews in that age range how they now they are male or female (or if they know) Again, nothing to do with sexuality - which develops later and is unlikely to be known by most pre-pubescent kids.

oh, and enjoy the wedding, i hope they are very happy with each other.

My youngest niece or nephew is the one getting married tomorrow.

orathaic +1
sex is not gender.

in related news: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/trans-people-angry-being-losers-gay-marriage-bill230513
(this is the kind of progressive laws trans activists should be fighting against...)
@draug, have you not got some older relatives who have kids?

The basic concept of transgendered is that of a mental illness..."I have lady parts, but I think I'm a boy..." or visa-versa. If someone behaved the same way, but said, "I have human parts...but I think I'm a dog..." we would lock them up and force them in to counseling...or at least heavily sedate them.

The idea that as a society we let people suffer through mental illness like this and have tried to apply a label of normalcy to it is rather appalling, when you think about it. (Again...if they thought they were a dog, we'd say they are sick in the brain...)

Just like the anti-gun people think you should be allowed a gun if you have a mental illness...I think the mentally unstable transgendered people need to be denied marriage licenses. Too much controversy....

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

orathaic,

"And yes, the twin studies of adults do indicate that genetics is not 100%, there must be some environmental/developmental factor influencing this brain development, but I suspect that gender identity is hard-wired in, while gender expression is learned and more fluid. "

This is a much more measured statement. All I was looking for -- thanks.

"The basic concept of transgendered is that of a mental illness.."

Stupidest defintion, by the way, the mental illness, Gender Identity Dysphoria, is the only mental illness which is consistently cured with physical surgery.

How can it be some illness in the brain if changing the body fixes it...

Unless you consider lobotomy hahaha

Well i suppose we could just kill trans-people, that would put an end to their disease.. hahahaha

Taken tovan extreme, transplating the brain of a human to a dog could cure trans species dysphoria. What's your point? It isn't a cure as they are still genetically consisting of the wrong chromasone pairs. All you are effectively doing is masking the symptoms and enabling the deluded.