Keep blowing off that handle.

I don't think there's any way for you to "reveal the intentions" of Captainmeme. This is bullshit.

That's not a reveal of undeniable truth, it's simply a claim from you to help you.

In future in a set-up like this the Cop should claim in plenty of time to save him/herself. ND is correct that claiming ‘may’ have led to his death anyway – but not claiming means certain loss of cop and a townie in NK, whereas claiming leads to only possible loss of cop and possibility that scum could die in lynch. It also opens up a frantic last 30mins or so that can be analysed later.

Whilst ND didn’t have a great game tactically, we shouldn’t discount his reads, particularly his read on Wjessop. Wjessop’s reaction to ND’s read after ND has flipped is also telling. Wjessop would have us believe ND’s reads are worthless because he played badly and he will also tell us that people relying on ND’s reads are scummy, but neither of those are true.

I know four alignments right now and it is correct for me to give more weight to ND’s reads than anybody else’s still living. I say this knowing that ghug scum read me and it is just as acceptable for everyone else to give that some credence as it is for me and others to take account of ND’s views. What you don’t see is me attacking ghug in order to undermine his views. Wjessop attacking ND personally is scummy. If Wjessop tried to answer ND’s case then he would be less scummy.

Whilst I don’t think it is necessarily scummy behaviour, I also intensely dislike WJessop’s line about ‘lynch me if I’m wrong’. It conveys a sense of certainty in their beliefs that really shouldn’t exist D1 and so often leads town astray.

I’ve already stated that I think Wjessop’s constant argumentative style with Espi is more like to be Scum Wjessop than Town Wjessop. I do note that he is actually having the better of the argument and Espi has continued to say some scummy things, but my overall read on Espi is still town although that could changed when Espi gets around to answering my query on him.

ND also had a strong scum read on Vecna and I think N1 and D2 have added to his scumminess. In the game I was scum with DeathLlama9 (as he was then), he was a noob and absent D1. We encouraged him to lurk through rest of the game and he did a great job. I think Vecna could have been asked to keep his head down D2.

I have to change my read yet again on CaptJeff. Jeff is keen for us to town clear him based on what he tells us is Capt setting himself up for the NK N1. But if Jeff is relying on Capt’s comments to soft-clear him, he also has to accept that mafia would have targeted the most soft-cleared player and yet here Jeff is still alive. Not only that but Jeff appears to ‘know’ he wouldn’t be killed even though town Jeff’s line of thinking would’ve led him to conclude he was #1 target. Before N1 ended Jeff said. “think others have some good ideas though which I will explore more D2”. This belies a certainty that he would be alive, and any good townie would have shared those good ideas. I also note that Jeff still hasn’t shared those good ideas.

I think the scum team is Wjessop, Vecna and Jeff.

If I die in lynch or NK, please kill WJessop – both ND and I might be wrong, but at least you guys will know our hearts are pure.

Day 2 Official Vote Count #2

wjessop (3): Maniac, Jeff Kuta, Espi
Maniac (2): bo_sox48, Yoyoyozo
Jeff Kuta (2): wjessop, DeathLlama8

Not voted: Vecna, guak

Currently WJESSOP is set to be lynched! 10 hours 28 minutes remain.

Vecna and guak will be modkilled if they do not vote.

Sorry for being a lurker for so long, like i said I'm at a f2f tournament still. I'll go with my initial reads from earlier for now ##vote maniac

Wilk Read up further as soon as i have some time and adjust my vote accordingly

Maniac, you're obsessed with me being scum.

Really Wjessop? Your clever enough to know that ND's tactical flaws do not undermine his reads, but you want to conflate the two in an effort to undermine his reads. I ask you to make a defence against his case, and you haven't. And now rather than replying to the case you try and wave it away with 'Maniac, you're obsessed', yet another example of you trying to attack the player and not address the argument.

Thanks for responding to me, Maniac. /s

I think you are being obsessed, Maniac -- whenever we've played Mafia you've thought I was scum; I think you need to consider your own personal bias that seems to make you think my way of contributing is scummy.

ND made tactically poor decisions, we all agree on that -- my view is that if ND made this tactical mistakes it is entirely reasonable to say that his reads may also be mistaken. I have, despite myself, also said that it still remains the case that ND is dead and I benefitted from my only main denounced dying, so I do appreciate that people may desire to make a causal link there. I'm simply pointing out a reasonable connection that can be made between ND's mistaken points if view this game.

As for responding to ND's case, wouldn't you simply say I was being "defensive" if I responded to his points in the expansive and verbose way that I communicate? It's often the case that town players cannot win however they respond; scummy if they don't and negatively 'defensive' if they do. Please consider this. In every other game, and particularly when I was scum, I responded to cases on me loudly and often emotionally; I'm not doing this here in this game because I'm confident in my town role, and nonsense reads aren't a concern to me. Consider this contrast. (Of course you could say that this may be a double bluff, if you so desire), but I put to you that if I was scum I would be much more rigorous in shouting down ND's 'case'. That said, ND's case, long as it was, was simply a case of saying "look Wjessop speaks the same way; must be scum", and no one voting for me have made a separate or developed case to warrant their votes.

I'd ask you to consider this, and not make a team with Jeff and Espi, who are our best scum candidates for game content/contribution reasons.

@bo: would you consider voting for Jeff or Espi?

Because Jeff and Espi have been caught, they've all but given up on bothering with scumhunting/even trying to develop their own lines of enquiry, and devoted all of their game time to defending themselves, or the great silence that we get from them now.

Town players would be asking other players questions, would be posting reads lists, or a focused player reread -- Jeff and Epsi simply aren't bothering to do this.

Just woke up, getting ready for dnd now, more time to respond once im ready. Its funny wj, i said the same thing about you. Where are your cases, where are your questions?

I've posted tons of questions. And have made clear cases on you and Jeff.
I also posted a full reads list. You haven't done that all game.

The "uhh, what about you" line is like kindergarten.

Also, what's dnd?

I have posted 3 or 4 reads lists and a lot of questions. Although i would be among the first to admit they are lacking,

Dungeons and dragons.

When I say reads list I mean a proper full reads list with details on each player, I do not mean lists with percentage ratings Espi.

I see, interesting that you mention this -- I know you live in America, so I was wondering what made Vecna think you'd be attending the Holland Diplomacy tournament this weekend?

Was it a misunderstanding that came from your chats on Thursday night/Friday morning in the Mafia QT?

I have no idea. I posted 2 or 3 lists without percentages and 1 or 2 descriptions of actions that weren't labled as reads.

Ill be free in just under an hour, and find them for you if you cant.

Ohh wait sorry, im talking to wjessop. Yes wjessop, vecna was confused because of the mafia qt, that is the only obvious answer.

I'd be willing to vote for either of them, wj, but I would sooner vote for Espi. Jeff is always useless and dumb as fuck and I have a harder time reading him. The only read I have on his character is meme's soft, which I don't think is as foolproof as the case on Espi, where, if he's town, he is a terrible player.

Do some scumhunting.
Do a reread of someone.
Write up an actual case.

You haven't even produced a case on me and I'm the person you're voting for.

Do you your job as a town.

Yup bo, i am a terrible player, it sucks but atleast i am trying. Meanwhile this game is full of lurkers.

^^ that was to Espi.

Where are your cases? I had to build a case for you wj and that is just sad.

I'm really quite surprised at the stubborn unwillingness being driven in to people to not vote out Jeff Kuta.

@bo: My prediction is that the Maniac wagon will fall apart; Yoyo will flip his vote on to me if he's scum, and you'll put your vote either on Espi or Jeff. Vecna and guak have both said they'd vote for Espi so it will likely come down to a 3-3-3:

Jeff (3)
wjessop (3)
Espi (3)

This is going to be a really tight vote, with two mafia and one scum on the block. This is why both Jeff and Espi are on me right now.

I would hope that the Maniac wagon doesn't falter. I would rather give it a shot.

@Yoyo ... where's the case you promised?

I'm also not sure why you aren't willing to vote for Maniac. I understand that Jeff is closedminded about this, but every other active player as far as I recall has at least spoken out against Maniac in some fashion.

I don't think the case on Maniac is nearly as strong as the multitude of things stacked up against Espi and Jeff.

I also feel like Maniac's consistent scumread of me in every game we play is indicative of his townie self -- scum Maniac tends to attempt to take pot shots at multiple players, but he's not doing that here. Townies are more inclined to stick to their guns, whereas scum are happy to paint black everyone.