PE- It was the same deal as India and Pakistan, Jews were expelled from Arab lands including Jewusalem and Israel expelled arabs from their lands, it doesn't make it right but it was not a one way street, it only happens israel won more territory.

Jamiet, how about you fucking read, I'm tired of this shit. Yes, AS I SAID, you can be pro palestinian without being anti semitic. You cannot constantly steroetype jews and say things like "New York is the Jewish homeland" without being an anti-semite.. Sorry, if yo attach the word palestinian to a sentence like tolstoy does it doesn't justify old school jew-hatred

"Israel today is a de facto apartheid state"
Apartheid is not a catch all term. It's an afrikaans term that described South Africa's racist policies. The analogy is weak and tired. It belittles both the atrocities in the SA and the anti-Israel argument.

"nor can I find it in myself to criticize Palestinian rage at being ghettoized"
100% agreed. However, I can criticize the "government's" methods and rhetoric. Terror tactics and targeting of civilians is worthy of criticism. Unwillingness to recognize Israel's right to exist sort of precludes any efforts to work towards a 2-state solution.
Don't read this as a defense of Israeli expansionist policy but more so an indictment of Palestinian policy too.

Just because someone is a victim doesn't mean that they're not being colossal bigoted fucktards too.

and for christ sakes stop using the term "Hassidic" Arabs. Hassids are a jewish group that formed in the 17th-18th century and encompass a small section of a small section of jews. It makes absolutely no sense to call Jews "Hasidic Arabs" It would be like calling Americans "Mormon' British.

Would it sooth your sensibilities if I referred to Israel as a de facto Jim Crow state? The point is, there are different types of citizenship in Israel based upon religious belief, and one of the classes of citizenry is greatly formally and informally priviledged over the other. And when you decry the Palestinian unwillingness to recognize Israel's right to exist, you are ignoring the inherent priviledging that Israel's existence implies if it is to retain an officially "Jewish" character.

" you are ignoring the inherent priviledging that Israel's existence implies if it is to retain an officially "Jewish" character"

No, I'm not. I'd love for Israel to cease to be a Jewish state. I'd love religion to have no role in any government anywhere. But that's a discussion for another thread.

The reason why it has to recognize Israel's right to exist is that any pragmatic solution going forwards has to be include two states - one being Israel. I'm not denying the right of the Palestinian state to exist even though it will most definitely have it's own set of racist and bigoted laws.

I don't see how you can talk about Israel's right to exist without mentioning religion. The whole point of Zionism is to create a spot on the globe where Jews can discriminate against non-Jews. Given their history, it's an understandable response. But it's an outdated one, and so long as Israel is maintained as a Jim Crow state, there can be no pragmatic solution. Violence doesn't start when the losing side starts fighting back.

That's a rather extreme point of view. But one I can at least sympathize with. However, if we follow it to it's natural conclusion then we have to deny the right every Jim Crow-Apartheid-Nazi state to exist.

I think if held every country to that same standard, which is a noble thing to do, we'd be left with only a handful of countries. And certainly none of them would be in the Middle East.

I guess I have difficulty figuring out what you think is so extreme about my point of view.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're suggesting that we shouldn't recognize Israel's right to exist because it has racist laws?

I think it's extreme because, if we use Israel's level of bigotry and racism as the measuring stick, there are a fuckton of countries that shouldn't be recognized.

We're not the victims of Israeli bigotry, so it's a lot easier for us to recognize its right of existence. But if we're talking about what the proper response of the US and others in the west should be towards Israel, or Pakistan, or any other state that has bigotry as its explicit purpose for existing, I don't think shunning them is out of line.

jew is not religion,zionism is an ideology,not all israelies are jews not all jews are israelies,not all arabs are palestinian,not all israelies are jews.
israel is the most democratic country in the midle east,all israelies has the same rigths(israeli arabs dnt have to do the military service).we are not fashist or racist,we just want to survive.

I'm not against shunning Israel. My only point is that Palestinians need to recognize Israel's right to exist in order for some sort of peace to be created.
A Palestinian state wouldn't be inviting to the Jews of the world but we still expect Israel to recognize it's right to exist.

All I'm asking for is a consistent critique of both sides. Which is why I said (a little tongue in cheek) that we should drive them all into the sea. There is a ton to be embarrassed about on both sides and trying to say which side is to blame is both impossible and fruitless.

@taos, yes, your state is bigoted at its core. You could change it by deciding that Arabs are equal citizens and not supporting the Knesset when they do shit transparently designed to get around the constitutional claim that the state of Israel will not discriminate based upon religious identity, but you don't.

"constitutional claim"
There is no constitution. It's just a shit show of overly represented religious zealots bringing shame and disgrace to the country.

in my opinion western ppl must filter the information they get from media payed by interesant groups and also be more carefull about what they spread over the internet,leading other ignorants to believe in lies.
there is an ethnic war behind the scenes and its hapening rigth now,islam will not tolerate infidels but first they need to erase the jews.it is only the begining.

Yonni-My criticism tends to run more towards Israel because of two reasons. First, they're the ones my government cannot bear to bring itself to criticize or fail to subsidize. Second because they're the ones with tanks and jet fighters who are building the checkpoints.

and we have arabs in the "kneset "too.

Yeah, taos, this is kind of where you lose credibility about your claims to desire peaceful coexistence. Right where you say shit like, "islam will not tolerate infidels". First, because it's not true. Second, because it sounds awfully similar to claims like "We are wolves, and the Goyim are sheep..."

"You cannot constantly steroetype jews and say things like "New York is the Jewish homeland" without being an anti-semite."

I couldn't care less about being called names by someone who slings them around with reckless abandon, but I *am* about curious as to how calling New York the Jewish Homeland is anti-Jewish when:
1) Until fairly recently, there were more Jews living in New York than in Israel (and there are undeniably more Jews living in the United States overall than in Israel)
2) The United States - and not Israel - was the preferred destination for Jews fleeing the Soviet Union (and I'd be willing to wager remains the preferred destination overall for Jews leaving their countries of origin today)
3) There has been a continuous Jewish presence in New York City almost since its foundation, long before the great-grandparents of Theodore Herzl were born
4) America has been a refuge for people fleeing persecution since its inception
5) Aside from an occasional minor race riot (which seems to happen to every group in this country sooner or later), there is no history of anti-Jewish violence in America
6) The Mayor of New York City is Jewish

I'm sure we could all count to 20 or 30 here and I don't need to go on. Is it really anti-Semitism to mention these facts and suggest that the world would've been a better place if a group of people (who I supposedly hate) had migrated to my country instead of someone else's?

I don't expect to get a rational answer from Santa or Putin, but if someone else could try and make their case, I'd be quite interested in hearing it.

"1) Until fairly recently, there were more Jews living in New York than in Israel (and there are undeniably more Jews living in the United States overall than in Israel)"

It is also tue the main immigration of Jews to new yor happened less than years before the main immigration of Jews to Israel. Yet somehow New York is our homeland? Why? Obviously not because of stereotypes you "throw around with wreckless abandon."

"2) The United States - and not Israel - was the preferred destination for Jews fleeing the Soviet Union (and I'd be willing to wager remains the preferred destination overall for Jews leaving their countries of origin today)"

And? What exactly does that mean? Who cares? People want to move to a prosperous country? Wow never expected that one. How does this make New York a Jewish Homeland? Oh yes, steretyping. You are an anti-semite

3) "There has been a continuous Jewish presence in New York City almost since its foundation, long before the great-grandparents of Theodore Herzl were born"

The Jewish population was minute until the mid 19th century. For the first 200 years of stettlement in the new world Jews were concentrated mostly in southern coastal cities such as Charleston and Savanah. Try again Tolstoy. And b the way, Jews have been continuously in Israel as well. So I assume Israel is a jewish homeland too?

"4) America has been a refuge for people fleeing persecution since its inception"

Really? So has Israel! What a coincidence.

"5) Aside from an occasional minor race riot (which seems to happen to every group in this country sooner or later), there is no history of anti-Jewish violence in America"

Wish we could say the same about the Arab countries right?

"6) The Mayor of New York City is Jewish"

OH the dagger! What an incredible point of arument. The Mayor!!!! So I assume in the past Dublin Ireland and Hawaii have been the Jewish homeland as well.

We all know why you said it Tolstoy, your same old stereotyping of Jews comes through yet again. Sickening.

"Second, because it sounds awfully similar to claims like "We are wolves, and the Goyim are sheep..." "

What the fuck does that mean?

Is it really that tough to make an argument without making gross generalities regarding an entire group of people. Just ridiculous as always.

"The point is, there are different types of citizenship in Israel based upon religious belief"

Tell me, what citizenship rights do non-Arabs enjoy in UAE or any other Arab state? That's right, none. In fact, the UAE has a South Asian majority but they're all indentured servants and can't vote or participate in politics. Whereas Israeli Arabs have freaking political parties and are members of the Knesset.

But hey, it's more fun to make bs analogies than to acknowledge that your 'victims' are far worse on every level when it comes to the democratic rights people claim to care about.

"there is no history of anti-Jewish violence in America"

What kind of 'homeland' would implement the immigration act of 1924 which specifically targeted Jews for immigration restrictions, or would have avowed anti-Semites like Pat Buchanan in the Presidential administration as recently as the 1980s? What kind of homeland would implement an arms embargo on Israel for the first two decades of its existence, and would allow heroes of yours like Father Coughlin and Ron Paul gain a national audience?

""6) The Mayor of New York City is Jewish""

Everybody knows NYC has been fully controlled by the Irish (Tammany Hall anyone) for decades and decades. Stick to West Coast politics, where your ignorance is only marginally annoying.

This whole Israel bashing crap would be easier to take if it wasn't being undertaken by shameless apologists of people who have absolutely no respect for minorities of any kind, and who are quick to call anybody racist who dares criticize their Islamic friends. It's like Chris Brown giving lectures about how women are oppressed.

Putin, you Jewish? I find you are defense of them some strange, since you are such an ardent Communist/Stalnist, but then again, Jewish people are not strangers to that movement.

See? I knew I couldn't expect a rational response from those two clowns.

Yes because who would want to defend "them". And if he does want to defend "them" it is only because Jewish people are familiar with communism.

""there is no history of anti-Jewish violence in America"

What kind of 'homeland' would implement the immigration act of 1924 which specifically targeted Jews for immigration restrictions, or would have avowed anti-Semites like Pat Buchanan in the Presidential administration as recently as the 1980s? What kind of homeland would implement an arms embargo on Israel for the first two decades of its existence, and would allow heroes of yours like Father Coughlin and Ron Paul gain a national audience? "

Don't forget that Peter Stuyvesant expelled the Jews from New Amsterdam/ Netherlands, which according to Tolstoy has been Jew country from time immemorial

How are my responses not rational? They are historically based and show a complete lack of knowledge on your part. That makes them irrational? Sounds about right.