The bible is a dang interesting book (or can be). Old Testament relating how a people acquires an identity. New Testament how men try to find an identity in the face of the "globalisation" that was the Roman Empire with its breaking up of tribal identities, making people into "cosmopolitans".
And it comes with philosophical gems as subtle as any.

Now, if I say that I am christian or non-christian, half of you will like me better and half of you will like me worse accordingly.
Myself, I don't think it is an important point. What does it signify if I am a "Christian" or no?
I don't live in 16th century Spain where working with or against the church is the central issue. I live in a capitalist welfare society, where money, not priesthood or royal authority decides the social/economic structures. Whatever is my mind about it, it matters hardly. I worship money myself, by simply using it, just like all the people I have ever known. That is our religion.

I like what King Atom and Mujus are saying here. It *sounds good* from a strictly human, existential position. But what would it signify to call myself a "christian"?

So anytime he talks about his beliefs he is by definition trying to convert? And every time he discusses them he is, by definition, a "pompous sanctimonious missionary"? And your only choice is to call him names or applaud him? And to discuss these things he is by definition only out for "adoring praise"? And when has he demanded that you be a Christian?
If they have disrespected you and your beliefs they are equally guilty. As far as "beating you over the head" emotional imagery but not very meaningful. But his last post he was just talking about what he believed. so what. Why do you find this so threatening. Why not just agree to disagree......the bile you are you have responded with seems quite disproportional to the contents of that post.

Schopenhauer was referring to "Most men"(what you believe was not specified I believe) which is quite perceptive.

Sylence, I think money is just a tool. Man's religion is vanity. It's the hidden motive behind every action of every man (except when they're afraid). Vanity is better hidden than God, actually, because people often discuss their gods but never discuss their vanity.

Greysoni, you're right, he was talking about the majority. His disillusionment made him a great judge of men.

I have also heard that he thought quite a lot about death. That may have made him an even better one.

The is a great book called the Denial Of Death by Ernest Becker. Won the Pulitzer prize in 1974 I believe. I highly recommend it.

@Zmaj....Hear Hear!

Well, in my mind, the greatest benefit of organized religion is that it dampens the fear of death because it's explained in some way. The rest of us have to figure it out for ourselves.

Though I would say that vanity is the puppet show we put on for ourselves to distract ourselves from the terror of oblivion.

@ Zmaj you really should pick up Denial of Death.....you would find much there that you would find quite interesting

Greysoni, I have just read the summary at Wikipedia and I see where Becker is coming from. In fact, I suppose I'd agree with most things he says in his book. Not that it would help solve anything.

As for vanity, a puppet show is a nice metaphor, except that it assumes that we could stop the show, while I believe that trying to live without vanity would be like trying to live without water.

I completely understand that view....I think Becker would agree that mankind is put into quite an impossible position requiring a "functioning illusion" to cope. His analysis is quite impressive but I do believe there is a way out of the dilemma. He talks about Kirkegaard's idea that one must pass through the "school of anxiety" with I think is quite like the notion of "The dark night of the soul".

"God is all powerful, and we are not. Certainly, you can see why we should not kill anyone, and how mighty He is for being able to kill us all with one blow, yet loving us so much that He chooses not to every second of our lives."

This is for real! I kid you not. Nobody could make this stuff up.
This is the end of King Atom's last lengthy diatribe of the day.
Anyone spot the derangement?

In fact Becker's dedication in the book is quite thought provoking. He thanks his parents for the most paradoxical gift of all..."a confusion about heroism".

I believe that religion has great value but so many drink the bad kool aid. That is an example of it.

Lol, I guess most parents give that gift, it's just hard to see the good in it. Smart man, that Becker. And since I'm actively looking for a way out, I'll check Kierkegaard. But the setup looks so simple to me now that I'm quite skeptical about viable alternatives. Anyway, thanks, Greysoni.

Maybe try the 'Tao Te Ching'.

Also I would check out Buddhist psychological theory. Forget the reincarnation and similar stuff. It's far more analytical then many people realize. There is a very good reason why the Dalai Lama calls it the science of the mind.

"the first step is to say "God, if you're there, I want to know you exist," and mean it. The next step is to accept his free gift of salvation, paid for by his death on the cross."

1st step: most every agnostic or atheist has done this at some point

2nd step: not free. Not free at all. If you worked in advertising you'd have to say, "FREE* GIFT." Because this gift comes with some pretty gigantic strings, wouldn't you say?

No, if salvation were free it would be given regardless of what I give back. That's what a gift is.

@Zmag:

+1 for the Nietzsche quote...someone besides me pulling him up as an example...!

(Now just reference Shakespeare, Milton, and Plato like an insufferable prick and write treatise-length posts no one in their right mind would ever read and we can be twinsies!) :p

@YJ:

Well said--

Salvation is anything BUT free...

And in any case, I'd like to ask a question:

Why would a God who is supposedly the Creator of all of everything ever...why is such a being so jilted when someone says "no thank you" to him?

I mean...

Is God so petty he can't take "No" for an answer?

And if he is that petty...well...not only is he hardly all-loving...he's rather pathetic and bordering on the psychotic, judging by his actions when people dare to say "No," wouldn't you say?

I mean...

What well-adjusted father sees his children all working together nicely and in peace to build a tower, in their childish innocence claim it'll "be super-duper tall, tall enough to reach up to you, Daddy!" when, clearly, it won't be...

And as a response said father violently kicks over the block tower his kids have been working on, brutally punishes them for daring to aim high and work together, and then makes it so all his children speak different languages, hate each other, and will keep on hating each other for millenia...

BUT...He *LOVES* you, of course!

O.O

Most God-botherers I know are all decent people. Not all of them want or need to ram their own personal beliefs down other peoples throats.
They even have respect and tolerance for other people who have different views than themselves.
This forum seems to give the whole issue of religion way more prominence and attention than it receives amongst the wider society, why is that?

Obiwan, definitely, ask God those things. Truth isn't found by ignoring the important questions, but by confronting them.

Greyson, here's an answer to why this topic--not me personally--attracts such vehement opposition. In the words of Jesus, John 7:7, NLT: "The world can't hate you, but it does hate me because I accuse it of doing evil." So it's natural.

Nah, in this case it's just personal prejudice. Look at Zmaj Schopenhauer quote.

"This forum seems to give the whole issue of religion way more prominence and attention than it receives amongst the wider society, why is that?"

This forum is much much more outspoken atheist compared to the rest of society for whatever reason. And I find that quite a few people on here are very intolerant of people with religious beliefs, but most of ya'll are good.

I don't see anything from John Chapter 7 in the Brick Testemant either.

Mujus...

Why would I want to TALK to the the entity who'd allow that sort of atrocity period?

"Confronting" those questions?

"Confronting" God comes down to weighing an old book and belief vs. scientific fact and basic moral and ethical ideas...

God loses there each time.

Story of Creation?
Science trumps it, and arguably, Common Sense Morality Shows God a pretty bad parent.)
Noah's Ark?
Again, no geological evidence, and again, pretty nasty thing, worldwide genocide...
Story of Abraham?
To paraphrase Hitchens, if someone asked me to kill MY kid for them, I'd say "Fuck you!"
Story of Exodus?
Nice...right up until the newly-freed Hebrews go and commit genocide in the name of God.

And on and on...and that's just the OT, without getting into all the fun little continuity and ethical and scientific foibles that pop up in the Sequel.

So much for consolidating this into one thread. 5 out of 10 ten threads are Mujus's bible thumping.

Nigee it isn't usually like this, but every once in awhile a zealot gets out of line and the community as a whole rises up to force feed him a tall glass of STFU.