No. You miss the point entirely.

They were believers. Be that in their Idea, or whatever. You are likewise a believer. You believe in your God.

Regardless of evidence, the belief is constant. If the evidence is contrary to the belief, the evidence must be wrong, regardless of how much evidence.

You sir are far more like the Khmer Rouge than I am.

If our current theories about the universe are contradicted by evidence, the theories must be adjusted to suit the evidence.

You, on the other hand, have a revelation. Its a gigantic cop-out. If you don't understand, don't bother investigating it... God did it. God is the answer. If the evidence contradicts what God tells you, the evidence is obviously the work of the devil.

The fact that you would even try to put your revelation into contention against the scientific or evidentary methods just shows how little you understand about logic, evidence, and science. Not to mention your own religion.


I'd like you to explain to me something. Your God, he supposedly butchered the firstborn sons of Egypt. To me, that strikes me as monstrous. He also commanded the Israelites to massacre the population of Jericho. This also strikes me as monstrous.

Please explain to me how your just, loving, and merciful God condones massacres and murders.

Then you may understand why True Believers scare the shit out of me. All true believers... be they believers in Marxism, God, or whatever shitty idea is preventing them from using their brains.

Jack Klein God is a Jelous God. Read the Bible and youll no.

Glad to know we are all so accepting of each others beliefs and preferences -_-

Klein & Fulham deserve each other.

Quick question: Who ousted the Khmer Rouge from power?

Hint: It wasn't the glorious British Empire, or any religious fundamentalist country which Fulham admires.

Hint: It wasn't some dithering social democratic opportunist country either, which Jack Klein may or may not admire.

It was atheist, socialist Vietnam, backed by the atheist socialist USSR. America and the West meanwhile funneled money to arm the Khmer Rouge, who were about as "Marxist-Leninist" as Fulham is honest.

Also another question: Who bombed Cambodia to the stone age and helped the Khmers come to power to begin with?

Hint: It wasn't any "militant atheist" country.

And it figures that Fulham would trivialize the crimes of Hitler and his imperialist friends, considering Hitler was a very devout Christian.

http://chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/pol/khmerrouge.html

Putin: Despite how we may disagree on particulars, I would hope you and I would agree that we need to be making choices based on evidence. You and I may disagree on that evidence, but that discussion itself is at least engaging the mind in figuring this thing out.

Any idea that refuses to change in the face of evidence is something to be pushed back against.

Yellowjacket: So murder is OK so long as your God does it? I'm really glad he's made up, because that's a terrifying idea.

Jack Klein god is timeless. Your fake science can make all the fake evidence it wants but evry Christian knos that gods law is eternal.

fullhamish I don't think people died in Cambodia or in the Soviet Union in the name of atheism, but rather in the name of revolution. The core of this revolution was not religion but the idea of class struggle - economics and politics, not theology. These revolutionaries believed they had destroy all vestiges of the prior establishment, and religion so happened to be part of that establishment, but so were the nobilitiy, the bourgeoisie, land owners, intellectuals etc. In Cambodia if you wore glasses it was taken as a sign that you were an intellectual and thus off the the death camps you were marched. This was not a war waged by atheists against religion, but a war by revolutionaries against whole swathes of society, of which religion was a part. There has never been a war motivated by atheism. Atheism is not militant because it is not actually a positive belief in anything, but rather a lack of belief. The worst an atheist can say to you is that they think you are wrong, they have no afterlife to punish theists. Some decry atheist criticism of religious belief as militant, but on the grey scale of militancy, it is an off-white, maybe a light-grey at best.

Or we can just go on insulting each other, that works too.

Yellowjacket, you should have stopped while you were ahead(if that was possible). You're really ticking off the relevant stereotypes. :)

Yes, we would agree. Which is why I resent the comparison of Marxism-Leninism with Fulham's superstitious obscurantism.

"The worst an atheist can say to you is that they think you are wrong"
Not true... they can go on a rant like Jack Klein and insult every religious persons beliefs... That is worth than "saying they think you are wrong". If they think we are wrong, ok. if they want to say it, ok. but there is NO reason to go on long rants and arguing with us and insulting our religion. just like we should not insult them for the fact that they don't believe in our religion. mutual toleration is needed, and both sides need a LOT of work on that subject.

"What has happened is to a certain extent the same manoeuvre (with corresponding reservations, of course) as took place in 1921, when, in view of the famine in the country, the Party led by Lenin raised the question of removing valuables from churches for the purpose of acquiring grain for the famine-stricken regions, basing a large-scale anti-religious campaign on tins, and when the priests, hanging on to the valuables, spoke out against the starving masses and thereby aroused the anger of the masses against the church in general, against religious superstition, in particular, and especially against priests and their leader."

What a fascinating quote. I suppose Fulham is annoyed the Soviets were more interested in feeding people in the middle of a famine than protecting the gold trinkets and statues of the church.

Yet another demonstration of the 'priorities' of Christians. That also would explain why Mother Theresa invested none of her millions in medical technology and her patients lived in squalor. More interested in hording her wealth and making deathbed conversions than healing the sick.

"ut there is NO reason to go on long rants and arguing with us and insulting our religion"

There is plenty of reason. Religion is nothing but hate & fear being peddled to the masses so they give up their money to a bunch of bigoted clerics or pseudo-clerics. It turns people's brains into mush.

Oh noes. You had to READ something that questions your beliefs.

I might add, I don't go into churches and bother people (or temples, or whatever you've got).

But if you want to bring your beliefs into the public square, you'd better put on the big boy pants, because not everybody is going to agree. And you might have to deal with somebody who thinks your superstitions would be amusing if they weren't so crazy.

"Religion is nothing but hate & fear being peddled to the masses so they give up their money to a bunch of bigoted clerics or pseudo-clerics. It turns people's brains into mush."
Really? I don't think I've ever been to a church where they did such a thing? but if that's what you think, then simply keep on not believing in God or religion. that's fine with me. I accept that you don't believe. and it does not change my opinion of you in any way(not that you care my opinion of you anyways). I do not care if you believe or not, I simply do not wish to see my religion put down and insulted.

haha sorry jack. I wonder if a believer would have caught on so quickly?

ALL OF YOU SHUTUP!!!

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

The religious can't feign innocence when every 3rd day one of their mouthpieces proposes some damn psychotic law to attack gays, women, or somebody else.

@Jack_Klein- I don't care about people questioning my beliefs. I don't even care that you straight up said that you don't believe it. what bothers me, is that you are INSULTING my religion. I don't even agree with the fact this post was made in the first place. my personal opinion is that Religion should be kept off of this site all together. but It wasn't. ok. so what? we don't need to argue over religion, you don't believe in it, I do, so what? should that really matter? it doesn't impair my judgement of anything? I believe much(not all, but most) of the scientific discoveries are accurate... so why do we need to argue over it? I don't want to argue with you guys? but I will defend my beliefs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12305356

"Yet another demonstration of the 'priorities' of Christians. That also would explain why Mother Theresa invested none of her millions in medical technology and her patients lived in squalor. More interested in hording her wealth and making deathbed conversions than healing the sick."

I always wonder why would anyone praise this genocidal Angel of Death who personally oversaw (blessed) deaths of more people than anyone I can name from the top of my head.

"The religious can't feign innocence when every 3rd day one of their mouthpieces proposes some damn psychotic law to attack gays, women, or somebody else."
Why do you insist on trying to lump every religious person into one group? believe it or not, SOME religious people are actually accepting of ALL people. which is why I push toleration so much. I couldn't care less if you are man or woman, gay or straight, whatever race, I don't care. and there are some religious people who go to extremes. I do not deny that. and they will receive there judgement in the eyes of the lord. but they do not classify all religious people.

"Why do you insist on trying to lump every religious person into one group?"

Because your religions instruct you to hate others. That's like me saying I shouldn't be held accountable for the anti-bourgeois sentiments of Marxism.

Come on Putin, ease off. butterhead isn't saying anything like that. And there ARE some REALLY accepting unitarian christian churches. You can't know how he celebrates his faith.

hmm, funny, I don't remember seeing anything about hating others... in fact, what I DO remember seeing is Leviticus 19:18 "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"

You know Putin I don't love the jeebus any more than you do, but if we are judging them based on their abstract beliefs rather than what they say and do, we are no less hateful then the worst fanatics.

Yeah I wonder who "thy people" refers to. Certainly not the Ethiopians, or the Amalekians.

This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

1 Samuel 15:3

Here's a call for 'religious pluralism':

Exodus 22:18: "Do not allow a sorceress to live."

Psalm 137, that lovely psalm that advises against revenge...

"Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Romans 1:27

The NT's hatred of gay people.

"In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error."

The Bible's call for women's total, subservience to men.

1 Timothy 2:12,"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

And the Bible's endorsement of slavery.

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

Come off it Putin, lots of churches just giggle at that kinda stuff, and from everything butterbean here is saying he's quite possibly in one of them.