In! So is strat

I'm in ;)

I'll join after class tonight, I already have the password though.

Or he apparently gave the password to more then 6 people and I won't be joining

It went to seven (plus him and his friend I think) so it probably means two people won't be joining. OK, we have five of seven determined. Who are the last two? By the way, redhouse, what is your friends name on the site so we can great her properly in here.

"And Putin, come off it, dude. My girlfriend's 20 years old and finds "girl" endearing, not demeaning. You look infinitely more arrogant trying to carry the banner with this manufactured outrage over the use of the word "girl" than any of us ever did calling a female a "girl.""

Wasn't much outrage. I made one comment and abgemacht decided to launch a jihad about it. Both your and abgemacht's arguments are recycled versions of the same "point", that it's ok to use demeaning and infantilizing language so long as the people around you seem to be "fine" with it. Soo abgemacht can trot out his "strong females"(sic) (by "strong" I guess he means puts up with whatever juvenile term he uses to describe women) and you can trot out your 20 year old girlfriend but all of that is irrelevant. Is the use of a word wrong only because some/many people find it offensive, or is the word wrong because it's wrong - as in degrading and dehumanizing? Is calling fully grown adult women "girls" wrong only when somebody else is offended by it? Or is there something seriously backwards about the fact that it's so socially acceptable to call women variants of little girl or child that people don't think twice about it and might even find it normal?

I mean, a poll came out and said that 86% of pregnant women have random strangers come up and touch their stomach. At some level there is tolerance of this kind of bullshit because it's so commonplace. Doesn't make it correct.

BTW, I know you'll love this, but "a female/the females" sounds about as weird as "the gays, or a gay". Term meant to be an adjective, not a noun. Reminds me of Mark Twain's spectacular destruction of Fennimore Cooper's Deerhunter in a book review. Why people can't bring themselves to say "women" is beyond me, the monosyllabic excuse is the best I've heard.

http://i.imgur.com/MSbk6.jpg

@Putin

If you're going to go so far as to quote me with a (sic), you could at least quote me correctly. I said "stronger women" not "strong females." Misquoting me like that just makes you look like a tool.

My problem with you is that you are trying to speak for 3.5 billion people. What right do you have to do that? You assume that because people I know don't correct me when I say girl, it is because they are weak and unable to stand up for themselves. I think the exact opposite. I consider my female friends to be strong willed and able to handle themselves. It is *you* who thinks they are less capable than men and thus require nurturing through BS PC rules.

" I said "stronger women" not "strong females."

Touche, that point was directed at Eden, I conflated you two. Mea culpa.

"My problem with you is that you are trying to speak for 3.5 billion people. What right do you have to do that?"

And my problem with you is you use anecdotal stories to justify making some comments. It's the same tactic that every person uses who wants to create space for themselves to be "un-PC". Oh, well, my gay friends don't seem to mind, so therefore using the term 'fag' or 'homo' is ok, etc. It's a weak defense.

Now you want to turn around and use the "I'm speaking for all women" or think women are weak tactic. Right, another version of your 'the people who complain are the real women-haters' routine. No, I'm not speaking for all women. I never said all women find it degrading or offensive. I said that's irrelevant. Nor did I say your friends were "weak". I said that in many cases, people don't raise a fuss about these terms because they don't think it's worth it. Because people like you will ridicule them and ROFLcopter them into thinking they're being silly or advocating "BS PC rules". But you interpret every case of not speaking out as total agreement with the use of the term. And then you pretend you're some kind of feminist because you think by your cavalier use of these words you're somehow telling them they're "strong" and can handle it. You have a bizarre measuring stick of what counts as being strong.

@Putin

I clearly said that if someone had a problem with what I was calling them, I'd stop. I would not ridicule them. Nor have I ever said I was a feminist. I treat people as individuals.

How can you say it doesn't matter if a person isn't offended by what I'm saying? That's *all* that matters.

"Both your and abgemacht's arguments are recycled versions of the same "point", that it's ok to use demeaning and infantilizing language so long as the people around you seem to be "fine" with it."

Except it's NOT DEMEANING. Jesus fucking Christ this isn't difficult

" Is the use of a word wrong only because some/many people find it offensive, or is the word wrong because it's wrong - as in degrading and dehumanizing?"

How the fuck is "girl" dehumanizing? That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. Dehumanizing means to reduce to a level of respect fit for beings lower than humans. A "girl" is a human. Do you even listen to yourself?

And whether or not it's degrading depends on context. Clearly, in this topic, as in virtually every single use abgemacht and I are talking about, it's not in a degrading context.

"Is calling fully grown adult women "girls" wrong only when somebody else is offended by it?"

Yes. Likewise with any other supposed example.

"Or is there something seriously backwards about the fact that it's so socially acceptable to call women variants of little girl or child that people don't think twice about it and might even find it normal?"

Damn, dude. My girlfriend has called me a "silly boy" before. I've called her "girl" plenty of times. You love your whole "lol anecdote doesn't matter" argument but quite honestly, it does. What are you going off of to say "girl" is offensive? The word of women who were offended. Just as I'm going off of the word of women who were not. You insist that despite the multitude of women I know

"BTW, I know you'll love this, but "a female/the females" sounds about as weird as "the gays, or a gay". Term meant to be an adjective, not a noun. Reminds me of Mark Twain's spectacular destruction of Fennimore Cooper's Deerhunter in a book review. Why people can't bring themselves to say "women" is beyond me, the monosyllabic excuse is the best I've heard."

csb

In fact, csb to the whole damn thing.

Look at the full quantity of fucks I give about the correct use of "female," the correct use of "girl," or your fake outrage and attempt to make an issue about a complete nonissue in the middle of a completely unrelated thread:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/113/729/look-at-all-the-fucks-i-dont-give-theyre-just-falling-from-the-sky.jpg?1318992465

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmmd5mrBlK1qafrh6.jpg

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/9370074.jpg

http://data.whicdn.com/images/16296803/4db77_ORIG-look_at_all_the_fucks_i_give_thumb.jpg

http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/spiderman-the-fuck-i-was-giving-has-disappeared.jpg

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lolgaat9IA1qj41h3o1_500.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrvpw9nYUq1qkwivv.png

Haha, nice there Casanova.

I don't agree with Putin's tactics or other ideas, but Abge, you're wrong here.

There are plenty of scenarios where "girl" is unacceptable, and they all have to do with the lack of respect "girl" impresses. Formal setting or not, in person or not, there are just some women, or statuses, that you must show more respect to. Someone's mother for instance.

I understand it's easy to get into that mode at uni where everyone's a peer, but its a bad habit that will get you canned more often than tuna. Twenty two year old boys don't call forty year old women "girls." Yes, it's sometimes relative to the speakers age, but there are still times where "girl" is absolutely unacceptable regardless of your age.

It really is about context. With friends and non-work relations of equals, it may be OK, but as Geof points out, it probably is a bad idea to refer to your coworkers (superiors, underlings, or equals... doesn't matter) as "girls". I generally refer to my female coworkers as ladies. It's probably the most respectful term one can use.

?????????????????

Did I ever give the impression that I used girl to address everyone woman ever?

Just like I wouldn't address my boss, or a male colleague I don't know well, or a male elder, or a male professor as "guy", I wouldn't address any of the above female versions as "girl". If I would address a man as "guy," I would address a woman as "girl" in the same situation. I don't think I've said anything other than that.

You'd think it would be obvious that one doesn't do that...

"Did I ever give the impression that I used girl to address everyone woman ever?"

YES:

"The only people who make such a big deal about calling a "woman" a "girl" are people who secretly believe females to be inferior and, wanting to hide it from everyone, overcompensates by calling attention to such details.

For people that *actually* respect women, they really don't put any thought into if they call them a girl or a lady, or a woman, and any woman with self-esteem doesn't notice either."

Hmm. I thought it was implied that, since the original use of 'girl' here was a socializing context and not a professional one, abgemacht was within that context as well. I can see where that's confusing though.

@Geo

"Now, if I'm in a formal setting, I'll refer to people as man or woman, but I do it for both sexes, so I don't see a double standard there."

"How can you say it doesn't matter if a person isn't offended by what I'm saying? That's *all* that matters."

Really, you're really going to make that argument? So if you make racist jokes, and people aren't offended, that means it's completely fine, nothing offensive about it? Or it only becomes offensive if someone objects, otherwise the language is perfectly acceptable? It reminds me of the opponents of hate crime legislation. There's no such thing as hate crime. There's no such things as groups. Identity, gender, race, sexual orientation somehow have no affect on people's lives and who they are. There's no such thing as intimidating or attacking groups, attacking people based on their identity. It's all about the 'individual'. It's a bullshit argument. It's mind boggling what you and Eden are advocating here.

"I clearly said that if someone had a problem with what I was calling them, I'd stop. I would not ridicule them."

And people tend to not want to make a fuss about things even if we're to take your word for it, despite your attitude in this thread, and actually stop when someone was offended. Because it's easier to play along than upset the evening or seem like they were picking a fight. The point is just because people do not object does not mean they're necessarily thrilled to be called a child by you.

The only qualifier you gave was "formal setting". So apparently any woman outside a formal setting is fair game to be derided as a "girl", and you don't give any thought to what you call women and don't think anybody should else they're secret woman haters. But we're supposed to believe you that you wouldn't ridicule people who object. Right.

I was never arguing that "girl" is professionally or formally acceptable. Just like "guy" or "dude" isn't professionally acceptable. That is a completely different argument than the one Putin and I were having.

all I hear coming from over there now is

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/O/v/3/palin-mad.jpg

"So if you make racist jokes, and people aren't offended, that means it's completely fine, nothing offensive about it?"

Yes, I believe that 100%. If the people I'm telling the joke to aren't offended, I don't see the problem.

"Because it's easier to play along than upset the evening or seem like they were picking a fight."

Well, then it clearly can't be bothering them that much, can it? I won't apologize for not being a mind reader. When I have a problem with someone, I either tell them to their face, or hold my tongue, if I think it will come back to bite me in the ass. Since I'm not in a position of power, there's really no excuse for someone not telling me if I'm doing something they don't like.

"The only qualifier you gave was "formal setting"."

Perhaps "formal setting" was vague? I meant anyone that I'm not on a first-name basis with and doesn't hold some particularly impressive title. Again, if I wouldn't call their male equivalent "guy," I wouldn't call her a "girl." Still, I don't see the problem.

"But we're supposed to believe you that you wouldn't ridicule people who object. Right."

You can believe anything you want, it's really of no concern to me. I've already told you that if someone asked me not to call them girl, I wouldn't. Clearly, you think I'm a liar as well as a misogynist. There's really nothing I can do to prove otherwise, nor do I have the interest to try.

"Except it's NOT DEMEANING. Jesus fucking Christ this isn't difficult"

Apparently it is difficult. It's difficult to get through your thick skull that calling adult women children is demeaning. It's part of a long history of treating women as if they have the intellect and mental capacity of children. It should be obvious to anyone who has an ounce of respect for other people, that you don't call adults children. You don't treat adults like children. You don't give pet or juvenile names to people who you should be taking seriously.

"How the fuck is "girl" dehumanizing?"

I wasn't referring to the word girl specifically in that particular comment. But the point, which of course you ignore, is that a word is offensive because it's offensive. It is not socially productive. It is meant to reduce someone in someway. It doesn't matter if individuals put up with it or think it's funny. It's objectively demeaning. There is no way you can spin calling an adult woman a child anything but demeaning.

"And whether or not it's degrading depends on context."

No, it does not. There is no context in which calling an adult woman a "girl" is not degrading. A girl is a child. Women are not children. Women are adults. Why are raising holy hell over this? How hard is it to give a modicum of respect?

"Damn, dude. My girlfriend has called me a "silly boy" before. I've called her "girl" plenty of times."

Yes and you probably have pet names you call each other. Does that mean you go around calling other adult women sweety pie or baby girl? I sure as hell hope not.

"What are you going off of to say "girl" is offensive? The word of women who were offended. "

Well yes, my wife would object vociferously if I ever used the kind of language that you do, as would every single woman I know. But that's irrelevant. Because the word is used to reduce women, period. It doesn't matter if individuals are so socialized to thinking it's acceptable to reduce women by calling them children, it still has the same effect. No amount of girlfriend stories is going to change that.

@Putin

Let me ask you this: what would you consider to be the socially acceptable female equivalent of "guy"?

"Yes, I believe that 100%. If the people I'm telling the joke to aren't offended, I don't see the problem."

That says a lot. So the n word isn't objectively a horrible word to say. It's just because some African Americans might not like it, that's the main problem. Got it. What a ridiculous argument. You lost all credibility on this.

"Since I'm not in a position of power, there's really no excuse for someone not telling me if I'm doing something they don't like."

You know damn well it's a male trait to be aggressive and vocal. That's why in classrooms, male pupils participate much more often than female pupils. That's why men have a tendency to interrupt and talk over women when they're talking. The fact that you don't show away from conflict means nothing. And any way I doubt any one, even though they act tough and vocal on a forum, would be confrontational about every single comment they ran across in daily life that they didn't like. If they did so I can't imagine them having a job or much of a social life for very long.

" Clearly, you think I'm a liar as well as a misogynist. "

No I don't think you're a misogynist, I just think you're wrong about this issue and girl should not be used to describe or refer to adults. And I don't think you're a liar, but based on your comments here about people who find the word girl objectionable, there is no reason to take your word for it about your hypothetical reaction.

"Because the word is used to reduce women, period."

No, it's not. Period. That you think you have the right to dictate to me what my intention was behind the use of a word is the height of arrogance, and why your line of thinking is never going to be accepted by anyone outside of your apparently rather ideologically thin circle of acquaintances.

I mean really, how thick are you? You're assuming that because I don't think it is always degrading to refer to my women friends as "girls" when they, in fact, don't give a damn about it and would refer to me as a "guy" no problem, that I therefore must think it always acceptable to refer to all women everywhere as "girls" without any regard for the situation.

Look at the fucking thread here, you belligerent moron. OP says a girl at work wants to learn about Diplomacy. You have no fucking clue what their relationship is. You just assume that it's a strictly formal relationship and that the OP is putting down the woman in question when in fact that is not the case. Think for just a fucking second: If the OP is introducing the woman to this site and showing her the game, THEY'RE PROBABLY FRIENDS AND IT'S PROBABLY OKAY TO USE THE WORD "GIRL."

tl;dr: quit being an arrogant, belligerent moron, kthx