And according to a large number of NATO generals, Reagan's brinkmanship pushed the world closer to war, not further away.

They did not jack up military spending, quite the contrary. Spending stagnated, even though the Soviets were fighting in Afghanistan and Reagan was being belligerent.

Gunfighter is on a roll!
Ending Detente was the best thing Reagan ever did.
He also totally demolished the political left in Europe.
If you are old enough to remember the deployment of the Pershing II and the lunatic protests that followed in Europe not to mention the idiotic editorials in American papers then you know that those marchers and editorial writers lost all of their credibility when the Berlin Wall came down.
Reagan is absolutely hated by the left because he destroyed so many of them.

Tettleton's Chew, this thread was about me, you are not allowed to post in this thread until you tell me why you fucked my bitch.

The deployment was originally agreed to by Carter, dippie. My god you clowns give Reagan credit for everything, even though the idea that the Pershing missiles brought down the USSR and the European left is one of the more absurd things you've claimed. And how did Reagan win the cold war by "ending" detente when he did nothing but engage in negotiations and drawdowns from 1985-onward?

Nevermind, you only talk to yourself anyway. Your ears must hurt from being locked in an echo chamber all the time.

"Reagan, Washington, Kennedy."

I'll agree to Kennedy and certainly Regean being overrated--good presidents, I'd say, but good for their "side"...

The Left loves Kennedy and hates Regean, the Right deifies Regean and vilifies Kennedy...

Ultimately, in public, both groups "allow" the idea of both being good to keep both names on the "good" side of Presidential history, but secretly, they hate them.

But I have to disagree about Washington, I think he was a model First President, that meaning that:

1. He LEFT (the importance of that cannot be overstated)
2. He was hands-on when he needed (Whiskey Rebellion)
3. He was hands-off otherwise and let the nation govern
4. He was probably the only presence the colonies could all have united around

There IS a reason he was the only President to win a unanimous election in the Electoral Colelge.

And remember he had NO frame of reference to go off of what a President should and should not do.

So Reagan and Kennedy I'll grant, Putin...

But Ol' George WAS a great President, especially considering he was the 1st; if he were the 15th or 25th or so, I could see where you might find him overrated then objectively, but as the 1st, pioneering President...

He deserves his place on Rushmore.

I'd rank the Presidents' Top 10:

Great Presidents:

1. Lincoln (Conventional Pick here...and a contested one, sure, but I'll stand by it)
2. FDR (4 terms, 2 crises...and he wasn't perfect, but he WAS the best of the last century)
3. TR (I am, as you can see, enamored with the Roosevelts...TR and FDR, GREAT leaders)
4. Jefferson (Louisiana Purchase, and flagbearer of Lockian Political Ideals)
5. Washington (For the reasons already given)

Good Presidents:

6. Madison (Another good, Founding Father President that's too often overlooked)
7. Kennedy (Got the ball rolling on Civil Rights Issues, Cuban Missile Crisis)
8. Reagan (Cold War Victory...and...well, ask TC if you want more of the Gospel of Reagan)
9. Wilson (The way he handled WWI, both keeping us out as long as possible and then entering)
10. Truman (Another underrated President; gave good, firm leadership in the wake of FDR's death)

And I'll give an asterisked #11...

*11. Nixon (Opened relations with China, and abroad was effective if VERY forceful...Nixon's the Pete Rose of Presidents--either you forgive him for his lie(s) and Watergate and you take the big achievements he has to hsi credit, or you say the lies and Watergate and the breach of our trust and abuse of power erase that...no right or wrong answer there, it's up to everyone to decide, but just as Pete Rose is banned from the Hall of Fame, Nixon just can't crack the Hall of Good/Great Presidents.)

Other awards:

5 Worst Presidents:

5. Van Buren (A lackluster presidency...and just a...dork, I dunno how to articulate it better) :p
4. Harding (A disgraceful drunken poker player in the White House and scandalous President)
3. Hoover (And then, in 1929...well, not ALL his fault, but he didn't really help...)
2. A. Johnson (Impeached, almost re-started the Civil War with his antics, ineffectual)
1. Buchanan (The country BROKE APART on his watch...that pretty much makes you the wost President when you do the one thing you swear NOT to do, ie, break the damn country!) ;)

And I leave William Henry Harrison out of that list because it's not really fair to include a man who lvied 30 days in Office and literally did nothing but sniffle and die...

Most Controversial Presidents:

Andrew Jackson and Richard Nixon EASILY (Land and opening foreign relations set against abuse of power and the Trail of Tears)

Most Kickass President:

Teddy "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick...and GUN!" Roosevelt :p

Best President Out-Of-Office:

Jimmy Carter, no contest (There, are you happy, Putin? Your hero has been appreciated) :)

And to round it all out, where would I place Obama?

Probably in the upper half of the bottom third, Ranks #30-44...I can't rank him higher than, say, a Grant or James Garfield...he's MAYBE at Jimmy Carter-level, but even Carter gets a slight bump from all the good he brought to the name of the Presidency once he was done and did all his great charitable work...

I'd rank Dubya Bush in that same area, #30-44...who was ahead, Bush or Obama, would honestly depend on which party has just pissed me off the most or most recently...

But BILL CLINTON and GEORGE H.W. BUSH EASILY oust those two and are in the middle of the pack or so.

obiwan where the fuck am I on that list

Most over rated president of all time:
John Adams.
He was what we call an Anti-Federalist. Not a suporter of the constitution and hardly a founding father...

You have such a facile view of history it's really annoying sometimes.

And Carter is not my "hero". There is much I disagree with about his foreign policy. I simply acknowledged he is underrated and Reagan steals credit for a lot of things that happened on his watch. It's going a little deeper than the "history" you get from high school or popular media, you know, a terrible concept.

You have such a perfectionist, dogmatic view of rights and wrongs in history it's really annoying...most of the time, actually.

And you are "outside" the realms I can rank, Eden...

That's how awesome your Presidency was. :p

Then go ahead and give me your OWN list, Putin, if mine's so terrible, instead of merely saying how off I am.

10 best presidents, 5 worst, just like i did.

go.

Except for that ugly scandal with TC and the bitch-fucking I'd have voted him in for life.

Who, me? No. I take in what is most important, if that means limiting what is taken in...then there is no real issue there, is there? If you can't narrow things to black and white definitions, then no one should take you seriously. You must pursue what is logical and what is ideal.

That was directed at Putin, if he was talking to you obi...then ignore my post.

Thank God Reagan stood up to the idiots that claimed disarmament was the only way.
The only empirical way to disprove them was to disarm and then suffer an attack.
Of course Reagan had the backbone not to cow to the appeasers, communist sympathizers, and outright cowards.
His stalwart and unswerving conviction to deploy the Pershing II destroyed the disarmament lobbies argument that this would lead to nuclear war.
It did not.
In fact Reagan forced the Soviet's to the negotiating table, and established the fact he would confront the Soviet's that led directly to their economic collapse.

Reagan brought down the Berlin Wall while the New Deal never ended the Depression.
The gap between Reagan's successes and FDR's failures is enormous.

The communists in Hollywood tried their best to demolish Reagan's policies that were obviously crippling the Soviet Union's economy with the major network release of movie "The Day After" and endless news magazine articles on nuclear winter.
Of course not matter how openly sympathetic with communists any Hollywood power brokers or media journalists were there was an endless smear campaign against anyone that publicly called them communists.

Reagan withstood it all and won the Cold War that the ineptness of FDR's dealings with Stalin began.

Dogmatic view of rights and wrongs? I'm a communist who gives credit to bourgeois, middle of the road US Presidents who did a lot of damage to my side.

1 - Lincoln
2 - FDR
3 - LBJ
4 - Grant
5 - Obama
6 - Adams
7 - Wilson
8 - Z.Taylor (probably assassinated)
9 - Carter
10 - Arthur
*11 - JQ Adams, close call on this one.

5 Worst
1 - GW Bush
2 - Reagan
3 - Hoover
4 - Nixon
5 - Coolidge (Harding a close 6th)

"Best President Out-Of-Office:

Jimmy Carter, no contest (There, are you happy, Putin? Your hero has been appreciated) :)"

Take a look at the things Herbert Hoover did before he was president. I'd say he gives Carter a run for his money.

...

Are you serious with that list, Ptuin?

LBJ is 3RD?

But what I like even more...

GRANT and OBAMA at #4 and #5?!?!

...

I'm speechless.

I honestly am.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you went out of your way after FDR and Lincoln to pick Presidents that are usually on the bottom...and rightfully so.

Grant's WH was scandal-ridden! Crime after crime! He was alammed even in HIS day for being ineffectual and having an office with as many holes in it as Swiss cheese!

Obama??? He's so far spent billions upoj billions in a Stimulus and a Health Care Bill, the former of which...well, we're STILL in a Recession, and the latter, we'll see, it's hit-and-miss in my opinion, and a step in the right direction, but it's no New Deal, and anyway, Reid, Pelosi, Clinton, and Biden ALL split the credit with him there, not to mention the late Ted Kennedy, who had this as a dream of his...5th?!?!

Zachary Taylor--you railed agaisnt my endorsing POLK...Taylot was a Mexican-American War GENERAL and an expansionist as well! And died in office!

How the hell is he 8th?

Chester A. Arthur??? Seriously?

And I don't care for your Top 5 Worst President choices either...3-5 I can see, I think Nixon, liar that he was, and Coolidge, cagy sly politician that HE was, were both above the Top 5 Worst territory, but granting that...

Putting GW Bush at #1 is officially declaring yourself the Michael effing Moore of WebDip...COME ON!

A. Johnson was Impeached!
Buchanan broke the country!
Harding gambled away White House china, he was so dishonest and disgraceful!
Willian Henry Harrison--a sniffle and dead in 30 days!
James A. Garfield--barely lasted a year, spent quite a bit of it incapacitated!
JQ Adams--got into office on the Corrupt Bargain! (And I see HE is #11 for you...)
Van Buren--did NOTHING AT ALL!
Tyler--did NOTHING AT ALL!

And on and on and on...putting Bush/Reagan #1/#2 as the Worst is just abusrd, that's past the point of being Far Far Far Left, further than me, into clear-cut Communist territory...

That's jsut being flat-out ignorant of your own history, I'm sorry...

Bish was an IDIOT...but there's no way he was a worse president than Andrew "I Escaped being Booted Out By One Pity Vote!" Johnson and James "I Broke The Damn Country!" Buchanan, to say nothing of the rest of that list.

FINALLY...

Jefferson.
Washington.
Teddy Roosevelt.
James Madison.

Four GREAT presidents, right there...where are they?

ARe you honestly telling me you'd rank Zachary Taylor, Chester A. Arthur, Ulysses S. Grant, Jimmy Carter, and OBAMA, after not even one term, over 3/4 of the Rushmore Presidents?

...

I'm speechless, Putin.

That could be the single-worst list ever to have existed in the history of all lists in the history ofa ll mankind ever.

Washington

We've had so many Obama debates that they're not worth rehashing. His accomplishments are overlooked, even though they're quite long and very progressive when compared to virtually all Presidents in history. The 2009-2010 term was one of the most productive ever. Most importantly though he saved us from depression, despite unprecedented and unified opposition to his every move. He also overhauled healthcare, something many Presidents have tried since Truman and nobody has succeeded. He also overhauled the financial system and increased transparency in government, not to mention curbed the power of lobbyists in the Executive branch.

Anyway, back to Grant. Grant would have easily won a 3rd term. He was hailed as one of the greatest Presidents by your own hero, Teddy Roosevelt. The "scandals" were overblown, and have been harped on by the neo-Confederate revisionists. Grant was actually one of the first Presidents to initiate civil service reform of the so-called "spoils" system. Grant was the greatest anti-racist President of the 19th century, in that he was the only one to actually enforce laws protecting African-Americans. He destroyed the Klan. That act alone is enough to make him one of the greatest, in my view. He was overwhelmingly re-elected and widely popular after hie left office. Not to mention the fact that his economic policies curbed inflation after a financial panic, he also manage to reduce the debt a great deal. He also passed the Civil Rights Act of 1875, which would have killed "Jim Crow" before it ever was implemented had it not been for a SC court case striking it down. If you think Kennedy is so great for his feeble support for civil rights in the 1960s, then I don't see how Grant is left off the list.

LBJ is on the list for his great domestic policy achievements, and because I blame Eisenhower and Kennedy for Vietnam. LBJ was a blank slate on foreign policy and listened to his Kennedy advisers too much.

Zachary Taylor bucked the South on slavery and an ardent nationalist who loathed the idea of secession (which is probably why he was killed), and actually had a quite a lot of foreign policy achievements in a short period of time, including overthrowing the Monroe Doctrine. He also supported the revolutionaries in Europe during the tumultuous 1848 uprisings and tried to suppress the filibuster expeditions to Cuba, etc.

Chester Arthur is on the list for being an independent President who implemented civil service reform and bucked his own party in doing so. He also bucked his party on pork barrel spending. I would say the Chinese Exclusion Act is a big black mark on Arthur's Presidency, but you have to consider that he vetoed an even worse bill, and when you consider that he didn't personally approve of the bill. Arthur was also an anti-racist who intervened to defend African-American rights.

Ha, I found this quote by Grant that buttressed my point in our earlier discussion about Polk. Grant himself fought in the Mexican war, but he said this about it:

"The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times."

welcome back Putin

Nooooooo...

My systematic shooting down of all that BS was lost...

Well, I'll leave it up to the others:

Do I NEED to tell anyone else why that Top 10, with Grant, JQ Adams, Zachary Taylor, and Chester "I'm Going to Exlcude The Chinese!" Arthur fails miserably...?

As for why Washington isn't on the list, I've already discussed that. I think he did very little.
Madison was terrible, I don't get why you think he is great. War of 1812? Where was he when Washington was burned to the ground? Jefferson is not very good precisely because he essentially set Madison up for the debacle that was the War of 1812. I mean, c'mon, Madison fought a war with the largest military power on earth with state militias because of his Jeffersonian doctrine. He let the national bank expire and thereby couldn't finance the war properly. The only reason Madison isn't universally regarded as a horrible President is because Andrew Jackson saved his ass in the Battle of New Orleans. If not for that, and a few victories on the great lakes, Madison's wartime record would be an F.

On TR, he's negatives negate the positives. I give him credit for conservation and the FDA and some trustbusting. But he mostly talked loudly and carried a small stick when it came to trust busting. He actually got annoyed with the trustbusting of Taft and ran against him for it. He was a vicious strikebreaker. His destruction of the Philippines and acts of aggression against Latin America were appalling. He basically started the problems in East Asia by giving Japan a free hand in Korea, and mediated in favor of Britain & France against Germany in the Morocco dispute, which was a precursor to WWI.

...

It's late, Putin, and I REALLY don't feel like typing my thing for a second time, and chances are you'd likely brush it off anyway, as you seem to favor and overly-moralistic and rosy view of rights and wrongs and goods and bads in a President over tangible accomplishments, even if it means sacrifice or, yes, some dirty hands in politics.

So, again:

Unless anyone really wants me to say why, shockingly, I think your putting down TR for Zachary Taylor, or Grant instead of Jefferson, or placing LBJ 3rd all-time...or any of your other picks, really...

Unless someone else is in the dark as to why I thgink that's the worst lsit I've EVER heard and why your reasons for your mentions above are not only foolsih but flawed or downright WRONG in some cases--especially with Arthur and Taylor, as this comes down to a matter of state historiy, which does NOT support your view of these men on racism or slavery, let alone the lunacy behind your crediting LBJ for inheriting JFK's new vision for Civil Rights but condemn JFK for Vietnam, which he sent a few advisors to and LBJ sent hundreds of thousands of troops and bullets nad bombs to...either you blame Kennedy for Vietnam AND give him credit for the Civil Rights plans he hand and LBJ basically just eneacted post mortem in large part, or else you give LBJ the Civil Rights stuff free of Kennedy but then place the large scale invasion of Vietnam on him too, you can't have it BOTH ways--then I quit.

You are not going to agree, not if I listed every last way I find your view of politics naive, rosy, and altogether impractical if not downright disgustingly-pandering, and you don't agree with me.

So unless someone else wants in on this, I quit.

I rescind the charge of vicious strikebreaker on TR, he wasn't that. Actually fairly good on labor comparatively speaking.

I WILL end, however, by saying:

-He established the idea of the two-term limit, put down a rebellion, united the colonuies behind the idea of the President, presided over the Constitutional Congress, was the only president ever UNANIMOUSLY ELECTED in the Electoral College, and did all this and more while setting a kodel for future presidents and having no reference point of his own...yeah, I cna see why you think Washington did so very little.

-Madiuson framed the Constituition...before his Presidency, sure, but still a big accomplishment, and for our Constitutionalists out there, Maddie was an early one, and a good one in office...as for the War of 1812, well...againm as with LBJ and JFK, you're cherry-picking with Jefferson/Madison/1812--either you blame Madison for it and leave Jefferson out of it or you say Jefferson set the stage and set the stage for the confrontation adn it wasn't Madison's fault he was shoved into it by circumstance, aGAIN, you cannot have it both ways...and the war itself didn't go well for the US, yeah, but even still, domestically, Madison was a good President, and hey, the US was still standing after the War and we rebuilt the WH...Maddie was a good one, better than Chester "I Hate Chinese" Arthur.

-I'm REALLY not in the mood to go into detail as to why your assessment of TR is shallow, superficial and, again, as per your nature, is wrought with cherry-picking what you like and see as moral and condemning what you see as immoral even if it produced a greater good or--GASP!--wasn't perhaps moral ir immoral, but just a political action in a political job...suffice it to say TR is one of those rare, rare, RARE Presidents Democrats and Republicans ALIKE agree was one of the greatest leaders in the nation's history, was carved on Rushmore...

Oh--and he was awarded the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WHILE IN OFFICE FOR STOPPING A WAR IN THE PACIFIC.

CAll him a warhawk and an agressor all you want--

TR DID know how to speak softy and carry a very, very big stick...

And the US is all the better for it, even if that stick sometimes had to be a US Gunboat, he DID make the US into a naval power, and not a moment too soon, since a generation later, his distant cousin would NEED that navy TR had helped start to build to fight a little brew-ha-ha in the Pacific with the Japanese over a little matter called WWII...

But you're right--

He was a nasty, mean ol' agressive type, and not nearly the kind of "let's all play nice" individual Carter was...

What a dork that TR was.

(By the way, the Adamses, JQ and Joh, THEY didn't always like to play nice wuth political opponents, either...JQ didn't even stay for Jackson's innaguration, he took off like a sore loser--sorry, your heroes, even, don't fit your idealized, TV-fashioned, cardboard notion of what it means to be a leader.)