"Because there's no market for short stories like there was back then..."

Oh, I thought you LOVED writing. Turns out you love the idea of writing making you $$$. ?

Actually obi-dork, abgie simply repeated MY criticism. You cannot write a SENTENCE, let alone a story. He was just all sweet and apologetic.

The bottom line is, you're a liar.

You've "written" nothing except for your inane forum rantings.

@fielder:

I do love writing.

And I love ideas.

But I'm also a realist.

And ideas and desire to write what I might want to write alone doesn't buy bread.

Besides:

D.H. Lawrence, T.S. Eliot, William Faulkner Toni Morrison. Mark Twain, Herman Melville...Arthur Miller, Tennessee Williams...even William Shakespeare--

ALL WROTE FOR MONEY.

For art, yes, and for expression, but they also got PAID.

There's a reason one of Shakespeare's worst plays, "The Merry Wives of Windsor," has Sir John Falstaff in it, even though he's about 300 years out of hios own time and WAY out of context--

Queen Elizabeth liked Falstaff as a character in the Henrys, thought he was a riot, and wanted to see him in a play again, and so commissioned a new play with him in it.

Even Will had to keep bread on the table, and write what would sell. ;)

If no one bought or read or went to see "Hamlet," it would be an utterly worthless piece of paper.

A very NICE worthless piece of paper, and if someone actually read or saw a performance of it, hey, a show like that might just catch on and be a wee bit memorable...

But if no one cares to read or buy it, it's worthless. :)

Van Goghs paintings are worthless?
Check and mate :D

maple, if I've earned your ire, then I'm doing SOMETHING right.

And I'm not like you, middle-aged and wasting my life on the doubly-foolish tasks of trolling a forum and waiting for the Maple Leafs to stop sucking.

I actually have most of my life in front of me.

Even the best artists started by writing shit in many cases.

So I'm no different there, and I ahve my whole life to work at it, try to improve, and root for a team that might get bounced from the playoffs...but at least can get there.

People SEE Van Gogh's paintings...so how is that a counter?

I said if no one ever SAW or READ those palys they'd be worthless...

Yes, if no one ever saw, to this day, Van Gogh's paintings, and they burned tormorrow in a fire, never seen, they were worthless.

A tragic loss that no one would ever have known occured, but still worthless.

People SAW his paintings when he painted them, and he could not give them away. Is my point.

And I think your financial argument is weak anyway. You can't say you love something and then only be willing to do it for a paycheck. A short story can be written over a couple of weekends.

@fielder:

I don't just love literature because I hope to be paid for it.

I like it for what it is.

That being said, yes, I'd like to be paid for them, and make it a job someday.

But I'll write for fun...I just wrote some of my story and psoted it here for fun, no moeny was exchanged (if there was, I got gyped and how!) :p

I take 3-4 Lit classes minimum per semester, and usually a PlySci/Philosophy class, and I tutor for English, and I write these long posts here.

That's a lot of essays written for me, which I enjoy doing, but that also means less time to write for fun, fiction or nonfiction.

Samuel Johnson once said "The only reason to write is for moeny; anyone who writes for any other reason is a fool."

Samuel Johnson was, in my mind, a fat-headed and fat-bellied (look at pictures) fool.

OF COURSE you should write for more than pay.

I'm just saying with my limited time, I want to write something that I both enjoy and feel passionate about and might garner pay someday.

(Besides which...I'll confess--I REALLY prefer novels and plays to short stories anyway, so there's another reason, if the pay/limited time one doesn't do it for you...unless it's Poe or Kafka, or "Ward No. 6" by Chekhov, I don't care nearly as much for short stories as poems, novels, and plays...just my preference is all.)



As for Van Gogh--

Yes, that's my point, people SAW his paintings while he painted them.

They WERE seen.

So they were not worthless, they affected SOMEONE ELSE besides Van Gogh, even if he couldn't sell them.

If NO ONE ever DID see those paintings AT ALL and no one awas affected or influenced by them they'd be worthless THEN.

"Even the best artists started by writing shit in many cases"

Ha ha ha, you kill me.

You're in UNIVERSITY(I think - certainly you CLAIM to be in some sort of post secondary), and you CANNOT WRITE AN ENGLISH LANGUAGE SENTENCE.

I doubt if any of the writers you've mentioned were as fucking STUPID as you are.

Then how stupid are you to continue talking to me?

Uhhhhh, how about "not stupid at all"?

I am not talking to you.

I am grinding you out of existence(hopefully).

Outside of school assignments and this forum, you've written NOTHING.

Admit it, or post something that you have COMPLETED.

Don't give me that shit about artists constantly revising their work, therefore nothing is ever complete because:

1. How the fuck would YOU know?

2. That's just another smarmy jew dodge.

"in your face" bump.

Hey where's the story?

lol okay ass holery aside obi, i feel your pain with the sentence thing

you are writing what you think - in your head it makes perfect sense, but the truth is its stream of consciousness.

try this instead. let me take you through the process i use. im not saying im a good writer or even a better writer than you but i am saying that i have had your problem and think ive done okay at correcting it.

so i will write you an example paragraph.

Anita was so flustered by his words that she had to excuse herself from the table, to Anna's chagrin, and go to the powder room whereupon she began crying uncontrollably, an act one could only call understandable if the severity of Mr. Jackson's words were considered. She looked at herself crying in the mirror, thinking all the while about inconsequential trivialities like her makeup and hair, if only to mask, as best she could, the underlying self-loathing, and dread at having to eventually go back out to face the whole of them, sitting at the table, judging her.

Now go back and look at it. How many sentences is it? I didn't know till I counted but it's two.

That's not enough. So we make some edits.

Anita was so flustered by his words that she had to excuse herself from the table,much to Anna's chagrin. She went immediately to the powder room whereupon she began crying uncontrollably. This act one could only call understandable if the severity of Mr. Jackson's words were to be considered. She looked at herself crying in the mirror, thinking all the while about inconsequential trivialities like her makeup and hair. This was useful in that she was able to mask, as best she could, her underlying self-loathing and dread. She dreaded having to eventually go back out to face the whole of them, sitting at the table, judging her.

It's still not great but that's the process. Do you see kind of?

obi-twerp should try writing some suspense using only a straight narrative. It would be a useful exercise for it.
##########################################################
I start awake hearing a sound, like the clatter from one of the kitchen chairs being knocked over downstairs. I open my eyes, turn my head and look at the clock radio. Two seventeen a.m. It's quiet. What's that? I think I just heard someone walking downstairs. A quiet tread. Walking around the living room it sounds like. I swing free of the covers and quietly pivot my feet onto the floor. I can't hear anything now. I wait for a few seconds and adjust my vision to the darkness. I crouch and walk to my bedroom doorway. Still no sound. I look straight out the doorway and see the top of the stairs and part of the upstairs hall. Empty. Still no sound.
############################################################

There. I just wrote that without thinking about anything except hearing a noise downstairs in the wee hours. It's pure gash, I know, but at least I followed a sort of a template. Because I hear that's how you learn shit.

obi-twerp.

#THAT# would be a useful exercise for it.

I do, Thucy...the thing with me and sentences is, if it's an essay, then I write what I think and I edit it, if I have the time...often times I wait until the last second--like any English Major--and then SOMEHOW I just seem to run out of time... :p

But this I DID edit and look over before posting, so it's more a matter of the fact I thought it "sounded" good that way, but then reading it realized later that it "sounded" better than it "looked," if that makes sense.

I like the creshendo, building-feel of longer composite sentences, and then when I use a small sentence those really stick out, it enhanches their presence...

Like music, it builds and builds in a continuous stream, and then when you have little spurts after that big creshendo they're accuentuated by what just came before.

But reading it again, it just gets bogged down, the words in long sentences like mine in this story, so it doesn't quite work the same way, as I'm finding out...

I started this whole thing because of a story krellin wrote and I critiqued, and something I didn't say there--because it's a matter of taste and not something that was really "wrong" with the story--was I didn't care for the way he had what I thought were some overly-simplified sentences.

That being said, MINE are, in places here, far too loing and cumbersome, so needless to say, I'd like to find a middle ground between those two extremes. :)



As for where this story is--well, maple, I don't give a shit that you've asked since you only ask to try and troll me, but I'm never one to shut up, so why not, thanks for the excuse to talk some more--I'm working on my non-fiction things right now, as frankly I like the characters and setup of this scene, but I think the direction I want it to ultimately go is something a bit more substantial than what I had planned...

I always have a ton of projects and I enver finish them, they're all lyting around here in paper and pen--I prefer that to typing, it just feels better somehow, and besides, I can write anywhere, even in class if I'm bored, I leave my laptop at home, so if I type then I could think and forget it before I get to write it--in a big heap and mess near my bed...

So I work erratically on just whatever I have an idea on, and so gradually they all progress in tiny bits before I hit a wall or get a new idea for something else and start that...I'm peaks and valleys--I'm totally-focused on writing in short burts, and then I'll lose my focus for days and get nothing done. :p

I'm trying to write something on Anti-Theism and Christianity, since I've spent the better part of two and a half years now more focused on this matter and the matter of Identity than anything else...

My thesis for this is Anti-Theism and Christianity/Theism are in essence both seeking the same base end, that is, to create or find an Identity for themselves, and that the opposition between the two fuels this, as Anti-Theism seeks to construct a Composite Identity from various proofs and the destruction of dogmas--this itself becoming a dogma, or is dangerously close to becoming so--while Theism seems for an Infinitely-Simple Identity.

Really, the Fundamentalist Christians' and Anti-Theists' views on the natural order reflects their view of the world and Identity:

Anti-Theists are attracted to the idea of Evolution and Darwinian Natural Selection, as this allows for the possibility of their taking the responsibility for a meaningful life upon themselves and, rather than receiving a dictated, infinitely-simple identity from what they'd see as "A celestial despot," they get to be their own rulers and build themselves up into evermore-intelligent and refined beings, and THIS becomes their identity, one of construction and deconstruction.

By contrast, the Theists seeks to find refinement as well, and this refinement of the self forms the core of their identity, but the schism comes in the difference in what the Theist sees as refinement--whereas the Anti-Theists see refinement as a process of building and the destructuion of dogmas and simpler ideals, creating an evermore complex web of knowledge and reference, the Theist sees an increase in the amount of "constructed elements" put into an identity as a POLLUTION of that identity, and for them, there is a divinity in simplicity, not because they see it as easier, but rather because they view it as purer.

The Anti-Theist seeks to Evolve.
The Theist seeks to be Irreducibly Complex.

Or at least that's the idea...I figure I DO get my papers done, and I generally type long ones, so maybe it'd be more feasible to try and type an essay like this and try and jsut get it published anywhere I can, and break into writing that way.

Or at least that's the thought, while I'm waiting for the story idea and otehr thoughts to collect.

But thanks for your advice, and your method, Thucy, and I'll keep that in mind!

:)

(Poor maple...all that trolling, and all he has to show for it is another OBi-Wall-Of-Text for him to shield his eyes from and shoot an insult back at...)

lol.

Wall Of Pretense is more like it.

That works too.

(You know, on the off chance I ever do get any of my bullshit projects completed, mapleleaf, I'd really like you to be my PR man...

You're GREAT at giving me free bumps and attention here, and your BRILLIANT backwards psychology tactic, as you troll about how awful I am, actually draws attention to the bullshit work itself for other readers to make out...you are INVALUABLE, maple, and a genius, a true, bizzaro-world genius!)

Hey obi-fool, a THESIS is not a STORY.

The "look at me, I'm so clever" act wears thin very quickly. It certainly isn't art.

never said it was.

but your "obi-fool," "Fag-naur" act wears even thinner than mine...

You were original once, maple.

And then you ceased, you went flat...until your "PHilosophy Weekly" rip.

Go, maple!

Mock me into oblivion!

If you're going to troll me, be innovative again, be new, exciting!

KRELLIN has taken your place! How DARE he!

It rolls off me, and gets my threads more views...but you've got to step up your game, maple!

Because if this is it...well, I have to admit being just a bit disappointed...

can we set up a diplo game with these?

-draug
-obi
-maple
-king atom
-CM
-krellin
-tettleton's chew

I'm somewhat insulted and somewhat amused to be included in that group...

Why not join the madness, Thucy? Bring Smiley and abgemacht and baumhaeuer and Putin and thw hole gang...

We'll make it a World match, just to add to the absurdity of it all! ;)

(Even better would be if you made that game PUBLIC PRESS!) XD

@Thucy - You can call the game,"mapleleaf, and the morons he abuses".

no obi i threw you in so as to create a grudge match feel.

the global press on that thing would priceless.

tettletons chatter would be little different and wouldnt flow with the conversation at all but that would just make it funnier

@obi

I've responded to your PM.

@Thucy

Yes, that game would be amazing.