"dow makes consumer goods in that they refine chemicals used in like plastics and fertilizers bleaches and all that jazz."
but not directly, the products they made are sold to other companies that then sell those plastics to the market.

"monsanto makes seeds that make our food, and makes round-up,"
They sell seeds to farmers, who then have to sell food. Again, not directly consumer goods.

"chevron profits from poor people who see no oil money that is right under their feet. they dont *necessarily* break the law but they could at least try a little harder to give, say, the Ogoni of Nigeria some of the wealth"
What good would that do to chevron? Ogoni are just in the way of the oil rigs...

"Nike and Walmart are criticized not just for the shit you said, also for exploiting workers, encouraging sweathshop-ism, destroying the environment, yeah."
Where else could they get their goods and sell them for such low prices? I also don't see anything wrong with slavery (sweatshopism), but thats another story for another day.

"nestle.

well idk about nestle. lol."
I have heard of the company, but I haven't heard of the incident about selling contaminated infant formula to poor countries.

And whats bad about Pfizers rep?

"companies are unethical in the same way the people are unethical"

Yes like people, companies are mostly not entirely good nor entirely bad. Like people they are mostly self interested, with some altruistic tenancies. And like people they are not always aware of the consequences of their actions. So we get some good and some evil. But in society that is functioning well there is more good than bad.

"and what about toxic waste dumping off the coast of weak and poor countries who cant stop companies from doing it?"
And the companies that do it loose sales when they caught doing it. However its only one time and the stock does go back up, but alot of major companies don't do shit like this aswell. You can find examples of both good and bad in every system. Don't blame capitalism, blame the company for doing it and for the consumer for still buying their products despite doing this.

"lol. companies are unethical in the same way the people are unethical. they can be ethical, either because they obey rules or because they think people will like them more, or because they were raised that way or something, but absent that, they are just going to do whatever they damn well please."
Agree, and I am not one to refrain human nature.

The only way that an Anarchy would work is after a civil war, or an extremly large disaster in which much of the population would be wiped out. Even then their would still be small gangs or bands of people who would most likely pick a leader. So a complete anarchy is nearly impossible. People like (or strive to be) leaders to much.

As we can see in modern day Somlia, if their isn't a government (or a very weak on in this case) Warlords and gangs will take over

"The only way that an Anarchy would work is after a civil war, or an extremly large disaster in which much of the population would be wiped out. Even then their would still be small gangs or bands of people who would most likely pick a leader. So a complete anarchy is nearly impossible. People like (or strive to be) leaders to much."
Your on the right track, except replace the word much with all and anarchy would work.

Also, depending on where the country is in the world, other countries might attack it. And with no Government they won't have an orginized army, nor be able to negoate with the other countries. I feel that Anarchies are doomed to fail.

I mean much like 80-90% of the population

I agree with Catch23

lol i'm not criticizing capitalism when i point out that those companies have committed true evils.

not against slavery? ok well, i guess since you're also racist. so you wouldn't mind being a slave, or is that only for inferior colored people, and since youre not them.. well, no dice? or what.

and yeah, uh, traditionally if you own some land you own whats in it.

so, like, if there's some gold under my house, and some guys come in and dig that shit out, they should probably pay me something. i really do sympathize with those of the delta who kidnap people, questionable though their methods may be.

so i really dont understand how you can actually think the ogoni are "just in the way"

i mean... really?

well whatever. i dont actually know which side of the anarchy thing you're on. probably on my side since youre a fascist or whatever.

government is supposed to be for the good of all, right? or do you disagree with that supposisition?

"I mean much like 80-90% of the population"
And I mean 100%

"lol i'm not criticizing capitalism when i point out that those companies have committed true evils."
then why point them out?

"not against slavery? ok well, i guess since you're also racist. so you wouldn't mind being a slave, or is that only for inferior colored people, and since youre not them.. well, no dice? or what."
Its not only for colored people, stop trying to compare me to the ideals of the 1800's (which granted are superior to modern ideals but still).

Slaves are for people who were bankrupted/committed certain crimes.

Also I am only a minor racist (a correct one) I acknowledge that certain black aren't inferior genetically, but like species of dogs are different, we can't say we are all the same.

"so you wouldn't mind being a slave"
There was this story (can't remember whether its true or not) in which a slave due to his work in the field became stronger then his master, yet he never rebelled. And despite being treated like shit, he never went against the orders of his master. Then once a week for 7 years he was ordered to stand watch during the night for trespassers, and not once did he try to escape. When the master asked him why he said something like this:
"I hate being a slave, its not fair and at times I feel that its not right, but this country, like most of world, is entirely reliant on the slaves to bring income for their masters. Whether I like it or not slavery is needed, and allthough I don't want to be a slave it was not my choice to be one, but Gods."
So to answer your question I wouldn't want to be a slave, but I could see how slavery would benefit the economy of a country.

"and yeah, uh, traditionally if you own some land you own whats in it.

so, like, if there's some gold under my house, and some guys come in and dig that shit out, they should probably pay me something. i really do sympathize with those of the delta who kidnap people, questionable though their methods may be."
Exactly, the mining company would fairly pay for the land. Not demo the house without asking.

"so i really dont understand how you can actually think the ogoni are "just in the way"

i mean... really?"
They are, we offered them money in exchange for the land, but they didn't know what money is. The situation is sorta similar to that in Avatar (and yes I sided with the humans on that one).

"well whatever. i dont actually know which side of the anarchy thing you're on. probably on my side since youre a fascist or whatever. "
How the hell did that come into question?

"government is supposed to be for the good of all, right? or do you disagree with that supposisition?"
The governments one responsibility is to protect the citizens of its nation.

Fasces do you think slavery should be reintroduced? Would this slavery be hereditary?

"Fasces do you think slavery should be reintroduced?"
As I said, people who declare bankruptcy/break the law etc should become slaves. A slave is below a common man, everything he owns including his life, belongs to his master, so yes his kids would be slaves.

Most slaves will work for the government doing forced labor, but some would be like the slaves of the past.

@Fasces - So you believe the sins on the father should be passed on to the children? I take exception to the idea that parents own their children to begin with. So if parent's *don't* own their children (if they owned them, they could sell them), then their children would not be defacto slaves.

"@Fasces - So you believe the sins on the father should be passed on to the children? I take exception to the idea that parents own their children to begin with. So if parent's *don't* own their children (if they owned them, they could sell them), then their children would not be defacto slaves."
Whats wrong with selling kids to pay off your debt?

@Fasces

"As I said, people who declare bankruptcy/break the law etc should become slaves. A slave is below a common man, everything he owns including his life, belongs to his master, so yes his kids would be slaves.

Most slaves will work for the government doing forced labor, but some would be like the slaves of the past.

This is so ridiculous I'm having a hard time believing you aren't trolling.

How do you justify:
1) A person being so dehumanized because they've gone bankrupt
2) A child being enslaved having committed no crime


Do you realize how draconian and sadistic you're sounding?

This thread conclusively proves that Sicarus is a multi.

Just curious Fasces, do you publicly defend these positions of yours, or is this all for online consumption? Maybe in Canada defending slavery isn't so jarring as it is in America, since slavery was never an issue there.

You do [need government], I don't!

signed,
That 15 Year Old Everyone Knows Who Just Read Atlas Shrugged

So, some humans don't deserve to be treated any better than pack animals. Even their children who have done nothing except have the bad luck to be born into a slave family.

Dude,

Even Atlas Shrugged didn't have slavery...

Not one of the posts prooves how my views are amoral:

"This is so ridiculous I'm having a hard time believing you aren't trolling."
To be called on it so early on?

"1) A person being so dehumanized because they've gone bankrupt"
Right now bankruptcy isn't that bad, there needs to be some real punishment to it, rather then just having the banks bail you out and you loosing everything, its not fair on the banks. Instead the banks should sell you into slavery so they can at least recuperate some of their losses.

"2) A child being enslaved having committed no crime"
Eveything is hereditary: Genetics, Wealth etc. debt and wealth go hand in hand, yet you wouldn't complain if you parents handed you a billion dollars out of inheritance.

"This thread conclusively proves that Sicarus is a multi."
I noticed that to...

"Just curious Fasces, do you publicly defend these positions of yours, or is this all for online consumption? Maybe in Canada defending slavery isn't so jarring as it is in America, since slavery was never an issue there."
I view slavery as it should be viewed. This has nothing to do with my racism, and in America slavery has been given a bad name which is why this sounds a lot crueler then it is.

"So, some humans don't deserve to be treated any better than pack animals. "
Some deserve worse...

"Even their children who have done nothing except have the bad luck to be born into a slave family."
Explained above

"Dude,

Even Atlas Shrugged didn't have slavery..."
Is this thread turned into a debate about slavery yet?

"Not one of the posts prooves how my views are amoral:"

Not you perhaps. But given the fact that morality is a relative trait, based on the judgement of the view your beliefs have been proven amoral in their eyes.

Now I have very strong opinions on the entity of what has been posted on this thread. However I've yet to do a proper read through so I might chime in with opinions on the topic in due time.

Then fasces, you truly are blind. I pity you.

Actually its my mum, not me who is blind. Your not going to try to counter my arguements? I want a debate, not people running around insulting me and my mother.

Here are some arguments against slavery:
It would depress wages, as workers would have to compete with unpaid labor.
It would stifle technological development, as free labor would reduce the advantages of developing some labor saving devices.
It would cause social unrest. With free people fearing the enslaved and vice-versa.
It would ultimately reduce the productive capabilities of society. Free people have more of an incentive to try to be productive than un-free people. There will a sector of society who will not be able to develop their full potential, and ultimately society will be poorer for this.
As a punishment it is unjust. People go bankrupt for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes due to factors beyond their control. It would also create a kind-of inverse moral hazard whereby people would too afraid to take risks for fear of going bankrupt. This would impede economic growth.

"It would depress wages, as workers would have to compete with unpaid labor."
True

"It would stifle technological development, as free labor would reduce the advantages of developing some labor saving devices."
true

"It would cause social unrest. With free people fearing the enslaved and vice-versa."
false, with enough armed mussel the slaves would be harmless

"It would ultimately reduce the productive capabilities of society. Free people have more of an incentive to try to be productive than un-free people. There will a sector of society who will not be able to develop their full potential, and ultimately society will be poorer for this."
False, what they lack in effort, they make up in time.

"As a punishment it is unjust."
False, for reasons I stated in previous posts.

"People go bankrupt for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes due to factors beyond their control."
God plays dice with the universe... Everything is reliant on luck, so why should this chance it?

"It would also create a kind-of inverse moral hazard whereby people would too afraid to take risks for fear of going bankrupt. This would impede economic growth."
But it worked for the Romans... I guess this is a valid point as well. This debate was much shorter then I had hoped for :(

BTW, I never supported slavery, this post:
"I also don't see anything wrong with slavery (sweatshopism), but thats another story for another day."
says alot, all it was was me refering to sweatshopism as a form of slavery.

When Thycides response to that I couldn't resist and the troll inside me came out.

"As a punishment it is unjust."
False, for reasons I stated in previous posts.
-Nope, still unjust. But then maybe your idea of unjust varies for most other peoples.

"False, what they lack in effort, they make up in time."
That makes no sense.

As for being blind, don't try and guilt trip me ass hole. I meant it metaphorically. If your mother is blind, then my sympathies for her.