Ava if you face to face friends played here do you think they would all knock MM off the top spot?

Didn't MM go to a ftf tournament and get crushed? ftf is a completely different game . . .

where IS MM? he's MIA

He might be in Peru?

peterwiggin, I agree they are different games. This is why I would like Ava to explain his point more clearly. It's doesn't make sense to judge MM's skill in an online environment in the context of a face to face environment.
But if Ava could elaborate, maybe he might have an interesting point. But if he doesn't it is a silly thing to say because no matter how mediocre MM is he still number 1 on this site and has been for a long time. Now if in the next couple of months Ava becomes the undisputed champion of webdip

oops... clicked send by mistake
.... undisputed champion of webdiplomacy, then maybe he can say "well guys its because I have been learning from the best of the best" then his point might have some credibility.
But maybe Ava could help us out. Ill suggest some criteria: strategy, tactics, content of communications, tone of communications, persuasiveness... where does MM fall down, and what is it that these face to facers do that we can learn from?

MM has not logged in since Monday Feb 14...

I was looking back at some of the recent games I had with him... came across this - one of THE most frustrating games of my webdip career:

http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=29251&msgCountryID=6&rand=85646#chatboxanchor

and this - one of my prouder achievements:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=30463#gamePanel

poor Dunecat was the dupee in this game too =(

Now I want to see a World game for 1500 each. Either the game would stay permanently paused or the clash of egos would destroy WebDip.

yes

''But maybe Ava could help us out. Ill suggest some criteria: strategy, tactics, content of communications, tone of communications, persuasiveness"
All the top 10 GR players I have played with lacked in the areas of tactics (heavily, they seem to ignore the difference between cutting enemy support and supporting their unit to hold), communications (little or no communication at all), strategy within an alliance (never proposing a strategic plan, tendencies to stab at the wrong time with no real gain, inability to stay in an alliance).
Having in mind that those 3 are essentials how can you develop respect to a supposedly top player, when he lacks in all 3 areas?

I respect players who understand those 3 areas, regardless of GR or points.
Some examples that instantly come in mind: ava2790, podium, draugnar, smileyface, dejan0707, barn3tt, pastoralan, jack_klein, abgemacht, dave bishop, rdrivera2005, themastergamer, jimgov, zazamarandabo, spell of wheels, tru ninja.
You can see some top 10 gr players here but most of them are not even in top 100.

geofram and timetokill too.

Dude, you've played 4 games with MM, he got three draws and a solo. You've played one regular game with me, which I won.

I'd make an assumption your record against the other "mediocre" players you've listed is equally as impressive... and extensive.

Maybe add basic intelligence to your list.

Ivo, you are so correct. I've played Mad and I've played Ivo and I've played Hellalt. If you want to know what an obnoxious, self-centered mediocre player looks like, see Hell. He's a poor negotiator, reasonably average player and, as far as I've seen in games with me, he's an inept diplomat. Mad kicked my ass at least twice as has Ivo, maybe more. I would take it as a recommendation of Hell told me anyone was mediocre. Hell seems to confuse rude, messoganistic, abusive press and poor moves as diplomacy. on he other hand, he has 189 Ivo, so he must be doing something well.

so you won in the one and only we played ivo, so what?
in that same game I survived with more scs than centurian, while troodonte, uclabb, thewonderlama and peregrintook got defeated.
It was actually centurian's fault that you soloed. He didn't listen to me till it was too late.
What I'm talking about was your complete lack of communication in that game.
I was playing Russia and talking to both you and England about Scandinavia.
I was in a big dilemma with who to ally.
I decided to ally with you against England not because of your non-existent diplomatic skills, but because strategically it suited me best.
Had I decided to ally with England instead maybe you wouldn't be able to brag now.
The point is you won not because you were worth it but because of circumstances you didn't provoke or influence in any way since you were bored even to communicate.
BESM don't brag so much dumbass. Let me remind you game gameID=33168 where you too got your ass kicked. Btw you dare call me self-centered? You are by far the biggest TROLL I have met here. Get a life you fucking loser.

and my points total is 530. I won 2 out of the last four live games I played.
Live games is all about tactics and I am the total master of tactics. Tactics are just too easy for me.

Did you just call BESM a troll? I don't think he posts enough to be in consideration for that title.
Live games are not all about tactics . . . they are about negotiations, strategy, AND tactics, just like any other game of Diplomacy. Of course, there is often a severe lack of reasonable tactical play in live games.

quoting BESM's msg in his profile: "I played this game by mail and face to face decades ago with people who may be dead by now. "
Yeah, you played diplomacy with Socrates and Plato...
You soloed against Marx and Lenin and you allied with Great Napoleon against Genghis Chan.
What a sore loser you are dude...

That makes him a troll how? Perhaps you should finish the quote too.

peterwiggin his global chat msgs in the game he won against me indicate he's at least as much self-centered and a troll as I am.

peterwiggin, no that doesn't make him a troll. that makes him self-centered and arrogant. perhaps you should get a brain too.

It is nice when Hellalt demonstrates his best qualities with each post. I am just amazed with anyone who lists their GR numbers as an intro on his listing cite. I'm sorry I upset him. I think I'll go back to the games I'm playing. I am impressed that Hel has any memory of the games we played. A little obsessive for me, but then I'm not the player he is.

@hellalt
Not all of us have time to look through other people's global chat in games. We have better things to do . . . like finding our brains after we misplace them.

Don't flatter yourself. I don't remember the games we played. I searched for them in my games history.

lol we dont need a new ranking system, we just need some MATURE players here... All will be fine I guess... xD

Besm and Hellalt please dont try to support me, my words are for both of you =3

There is no point in life to argue who is better than other... This discussion can go on forever, boring anyone on its way...

peterwiggin, when you become BESM's advocate or pimp, speak up.
Till then piss off dude. This doesn't concern your ass.

hellalt, i see what you mean. i think i have a lot to learn from such a successful player as you. can you tell me what areas i should focus on for improvement?

Anyone want to play a game? http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=51052

@hellalt - my main point was that you simply have not played enough games with the people you're giving opinion about. Hence the 'extensive experience' comment.

The fact that you've been soundly and consistently beaten in this small statistical sample is not the most important part, but doesn't make your case any stronger for sure.