I fully believe in the rehabilitation of criminals. I think our prison system is broken and should be modeled on rehab-focused European examples. But I'm not talking about preventing Vick from doing data entry at an accounting firm--he and other convicts should all be given the tools needed to succeed.

But that's not the point, we're talking about what the NFL should do to make an example of his criminal behavior. It's not their job to make sure he's sorry or give him another shot at the sweetest goddamn job in the world. It's their responsibility (based on the precedent they set themselves) to say "here's what happens when you do evil shit" and kick his ass to the curb. It's important to notice how many people here are saying "who cares he's a kickass QB". That means people won't remember "Vick the guy who killed dogs and was banned for it" they'll instead remember "Vick the guy who killed dogs and THREW FOR 250 YARDS ON SUNDAY HE ROCKS!"

Let's remember he wasn't charged with fraud or public drunkenness...he killed dogs. Making an example of someone rarely seems fair at the time, but drastic action is the only way to convey a drastic message.

I'd also like to speak for vegans, since I am one. I think that insect study is interesting but another reductio ad absurdum argument. Frank- we're not talking about people killing flies. (who wouldn't feel pain if squashed anyway, the same way an anvil falling on a human would kill him instantly) We're talking about animals whose peripheral nervous systems are essentially the same as ours. And I think your argument about hamburgers also falls flat seeing as the cruel living conditions and horrific death cows experience on factory farms to feed humans' greasy faces is also murder. All of these animals are known to experience pain, anxiety, stress, and even madness the same way humans do. The fact that we invented calculus and radios is pretty arbitrary, since our mechanisms for experiencing pain go back hundreds of millions of years to our common mammal ancestors. Therefore Vick is a murderer and the NFL should send a clear message by not tolerating his presence.

@Oskar--seriously? The difference is fight dogs are treated like shit their whole lives and usually die a bloody death with a bunch of high-tech monkeys cheering around them, and football players are paid millions of dollars to play a game they love, and then they grow old or break a leg and live out their lives in a villa in Italy or the Caribbean.

The spectators of the former are condoning a blood sport and the latter are enjoying a contact sport that celebrates human athleticism.

@Ruis

Of course it is. I just was making a point that arguing it's ok to kill something just because it can't feel pain is silly.

@Okra

lol wat

@abgemacht - there is a huge difference between killing and torturing. Dog fighting is cruel and torturous. They even torture the dogs to *get* them to fight. Far different from the free range chicken, cow, and pig as well as the ocean caught seafood I eat. I don't like forcefeed mill style meat or farm raised catfish/salmon as the conditions they are raised in are deplorable.

@Draug

First, I agree. You'll notice that I was one of the first people in this thread to condemn Vick for what he did.

Second, let's not kid ourselves. Most of our food is not free range. The way chicken, pigs, cows are treaty before they are slaughtered is absolutely terrible. However, there is a difference. The difference is we aren't torturing these animals for our enjoyment, we're doing it because it's the most efficient way to eat. Is it still torture? Yes. But, as I've said before, a human life is much more important than an animals, so if mechanically separated chicken helps people survive, it's alright by me.

@Ruisdael. This is a little bit of an aside, but do you really think that Fraud is a minor offense compared to animal cruelty? Are fraud and public drunkenness really comparable?

But also, why would you be ok with a criminal doing data entry at an accounting firm but not ok with them playing in the NFL. Accounting firms are charged with ensuring the validity, accuracy and completeness of financial information. Wouldn't a criminal have much more opportunity to commit a further crime, say fraud, at an accounting firm than if they are under the watchful public eye playing a high-profile sport?

Most of what you eat may not be free range, but I only by free range and organic in the store. I also chose restaurants (except Burger King, McD's, Wendy's, and Subway) that server free range like Local 127 downtown. I will admit my lunches tend to be the aforementioned big bads, but even then I sometimes go to Chick Filet and Chipotle which are both going more and more free range every day.

@Lando - it would depend on the crime as to what an appropriate job would be, but never a job as a clelebrity ion the public eye. Ickey Woods payed a far higher price for his drug problems. Last time I saw him was when he came to my door selling meat out of the back of a truck for Iowa Steak Company.

Clarification. It was Omaha Steak (a little more reputable company)

But Mike Vick doesn't have drug problems. His problems are something of the past. So, to rehabilitate him I think almost everyone has agreed that he should have a job. As an NFL player the public will be paying close attention to him due to his very publicized past. I think this will help prevent future incidents of dog-fighting. At least by him, if not by all NFL players.

And a quick Wikipedia search of Ickey Woods tells me he is currently coaching Women's Football for the Cincinatti Sizzle. I guess he's on the upswing now.

First of all, what Vick did was a terrible crime and I certainly do not condone it, but you have to give credit for what the man has done since he paid his debt to society. Not only did he advance from being a 3rd string quarterback to a starter, but he just put up the best game for a quarterback since 1950 and broke all sorts of records - after cracking some ribs in October (I think that was his injury). I think there is a point in time when you must stop condemning someone for their past and look at who they are in the present. 5 years ago I did some things that I certainly regret doing, but those actions do not reflect on what type of person I am now

As long as he ate the dogs, I personally don't see the problem in it. I personally prefer to kill at eat pigs, cows, deer, lambs etc. and eat them but to each his own.

@Ruis: Its great that you guys choose to eat free range or vegan. That is probably a more healthy and environmentally sustainable way to live. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us should go to prison for more than two years or not be allowed to pursue our chosen profession. The NFL should hold employees accountable and they do: they often suspend players -- including Vick-- when they violate the league's conduct policy. However, a lifetime ban for a player who has admitted fault, served his penalty and so on is hardly constructive.

As an aside, I personally don't think Mike Vick should've gone to prison at all. We are too quick to imprison first time offenders who don't pose a risk to society. This helps fuel an expensive, discriminatory prison system that usually seems to be focused on punitive actions rather than rehabilitation. I think America has the most people incarcerated per capita in the world. Or at least in "first" world countries.

Yet for gambling (never on his own team), MLB lifetime banned Pete Rose. What message does that send?

As an aside - if you do the crime, you ought to do the time. If you let first offenders go with a slap on the wrist, they'll become repeat offenders. Punishment and equal justice for all (especially the innocent animals he tortured and killed) is the only way to go. He got off easy because he was a celeb. Hell, if this had been California, he would have walked away with a fine and a supended sentence because they only jail celebrities who have gone beyond being out of control. and even then sentences get reduced to weeks or even days.

@Draug: I think Pete Rose received the lifetime ban more for lying to Ueberroth and Giamatti and also for avoiding responsibility for decades. Not just for the gambling itself. Vick didnt shirk responsibility. Also, his actions had no effect on the sanctity of the game itself. But yeah, I think Rose should be re-instated.

Also, I think your theory onrecidivism is wayy off. For example, youth processed in the adult criminal justice system are much more likely to reoffend than those who are processed in the (much laxer) juvenile system.

Finally, Vick didn't get off easy for being a celeb. In fact, the DA went out of his way because he knew coming down hard would make his career. Two years is probably more than the average punishment for dogfighting. But I will look that up, I don't really know.

Interstate dog fighting is a federal felony with a fine of $250K and three years in prison. He got off light considering that most state laws or more strict and can carry 5 or more years and significantly higher fines.

NPR is talking about Vick right now.

@Frank I suggest you read Redford Reese's book Prison Race,if you haven't already. I think you would agree with a lot of the stuff he says. I just had to read it for one of my classes and it was fascinating