"...and it may be offensive invictus but what part of it isnt true (discounting the zombie bit)"

Discounting the infuriating zombie blasphemy, you don't get God's forgiveness through the Eucharist and certainly not forgiveness for Original Sin from Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge. That sin is absolved through baptism, and the Eucharist is a celebration of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross.

Also, God doesn't send anyone to Hell. We choose to go to Hell by disobeying God and sinning.

So nothing of what he said was true. You're not a nice guy at all, Sicarius. This was a pretty intelligent, reasonable thread going on here. Once.

trim, I think I responded to just about everything you said - if I missed something let me know what it was because I'm not seeing it.

phil, you're right that I missed the possibility of other written sources. Like I said previously, I have not delved much into the academic theories regarding Genesis.

As for Christians regarding the OT as inerrant the first thing that I think of is not something Jesus said, but something that Peter said. He said that all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction. While that does not explicity state that the OT is infallible it does implicitly state it (It is God-inspired/breathed --> God does not make mistakes --> it is mistake-free)

Now, regarding science, you have already seen that my foundation is the Bible and that I let the Bible interpret science and not the other way around. Now, I recognize that mistakes have been made in the past in that tradition (for example, medieval Christians believing that the sun revolved around the earth based on an erroneous interpretation of scripture) and I think it is important to remain open to science. The earlier old-earth/youg-earth discussion is a good example of this.

However, some scientific theories fly in the face of Christianity. The prime example of this would be evolution. I saw an interview once with the guy who discovered the double-helix shape of DNA. He was asked what the significance of evolution is. His reponse was that the significance of evolution is that man has arisen on his own without the help of any god.

The Bible asserts however that God created everything and that this fact is evident to every single one of us.

You say that I accuse 5 branches of science of being wrong. Well, maybe so, but science accuses God of being wrong too...

Frankly, I think you have to have more faith to believe in evolution than you have to have to believe in God.

bart - i don't think i've mocked anyone in this thread, postmodern or not.

It really doesnt matter what Sicarius says because it doesnt affect your life. If you are confident in your believes then the only thing you have to worry about is not your feelings but where sicarius will be vacationing when he is no longer alive. If anything, reacting with a negative attitude goes against the teachings on forgiving your neighbor which kinda makes you hypocritical. Need i remind you that hypocricy is probably the biggest criticism of Christianity?

Sammy that's actually what I was getting at. People disrespecting Christianity is nothing new, afterall, we preach "foolishness" to them. And it's offensive no less! To tell people they are stuck in sin and they've been living their entire lives under a false pretense and for nothing is offensive! We should only expect people to be so honest with their reactions as sicarius. For our own egos and pride we wish it were not so.

The early church being burnded alive at the stake or eaten by lions would never dream of demanding "respect" from those that hold views in opposition. This is a western ideal and one that is often a cancer of Christianity.

Sammy - you're right about hyposcrisy - and I suppose there is a sense in which it is unavoidable, because we are utterly unable to live up to a standard of perfection.

However, the hypocrisy comes in when we preach things as sin to others but do not recognize it and deal with it in our own lives.

Also, I really don't think I responded with a negative attitude to him...perhaps my post didn't accurately convey what I meant it to convey.

...you didnt but some people would

And I do not expect respect...or demand it. I know that the message of Christ is offensive to people.

invictus- just forgive him :p

bartdogg - very well said. To many people religion seems incredibly foolish. If religion wants respect it should respect those who do not believe. Isn't that even a Christian teaching? Do unto others...?

Jacob - 'science' has never accused anything of being wrong. Scientific method however, is a tool that helps us judge the likelihood of things. Scientific method indicates that the existence of God and intelligent design are less likely than an evolutionary method. This does NOT mean that the former is 'wrong' (or that the latter is 'right'), nor does it mean it isn't the answer. It simply means there are other ones with more material credibility.

About the 'and the fact is evident', I fail to see how it is any more evident than the explanations given by Norse/Buddhist/insert-miscellaneous-non-Abrahamic-faith. It comes down to 'my holy books/tomes are truer than your holy books/tomes'. We meet faith yet again. Evidence disappears. By the way, I'm not a post-modernist, I'm actively against it. The lack of objective truth isn't a new idea, it goes back a long way.

Well, the Bible sure has a lot going for it that other 'holy books' don't have.

For instance, the historicity of events, places, rulers, terminology, etc, has been proven accurate time and time and time again. Compare this to, say, the book of Mormon.

Also, you have astonishing examples of fulfilled prophecy especially in relation to the life of Christ. For example, read Psalm 22 and compare it to Christ's crucifixion.

These are some of the things that distinguish the Bible from other holy books.

How can we have "do onto others" when our very core beliefs are being attacked? There's a difference between turning the other cheek and being a doormat.

I personally don't think evolution and God are irreconcilable, and I frankly don't care how God made the universe. I just know that he did it.

trim, I don't really care what Sicarius believes, it's his life. I just wish he could at least PRETEND to be civil and not jump right into a den of assholery with inflammatory blasphemies. I mean, he can at least be polite.

But I guess that's just how my mother raised me.

a lot of scholars believe the prophecies were written after the events, and also how many failed prophecies are there?

so if he was polite and still said his "infammoatory blasphemies" then it would be ok

"Zombie Jesus" can never be polite.

so if he missed that bit out?

'Blasphemies' don't exist for people who don't believe. If I say Jesus was nothing more than an ordinary man with a lot of charisma and was no more special than, say, Caesar Augustus, that's blasphemy. Equally it's blasphemous for me to say that the people who crucified Christ are no more to blame than those who crucified others. These may be offensive to a believer, but I reserve the right to state them as my opinion, just as a believer may state his opinions and beliefs.

Basically...some things may be inflammatory for you, doesn't mean everyone else must therefore never say them. I do agree, however, on the point of politeness.

The belief that some cosmic Jewish being can make you live for ever in heaven if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

Jacob you said:

"Fair enough sic, you certainly aren't the first to mock Christians. Just do me a favor and don't call Christians intolerant when you are the one too intolerant of Christians to treat them with any respect."

That is demanding respect.

Trim: I'd challenge you to provide these "scholars" that believe the biblical writings were written after the events. I'd also challenge you to present "failed" prophecies.

@Jacob - "You say that I accuse 5 branches of science of being wrong. Well, maybe so, but science accuses God of being wrong too... "

That is an honest response and I appreciate that. There are many in the field of apologetics though, that actually spend a lot of their careers trying to disprove things like radio-carbon dating and geological radiometric dating, in order to try to play the science game to disprove science for the sole reason that thier book must not contain any factual errors.

I find it refreshing that you take the stance that if science and your beliefs are out of synch, than you will chose your beliefs without even bothering to disprove science.

Regarding the issue of Faith and evolution though - I believe in evolution and faith has nothing to do with it. I believe in the scientific method because it makes sense on a logical level. Make a theory (heavier things fall faster than lighter things). Make a prediction (This bowling ball will hit the ground faster than this pool ball if I drop them from the same height at the same time) Test your prediction (Drop them both and watch as they hit the floor simultaneously). Your theory has now been disproved. Revise your theory and repeat.

To say that scientists have a vested interest in a theory being right is to misunderstand both science AND scientists! Scientists are alway trying to disprove each other's theory - that's where the real fame is! Einstein proved Newton wrong, who proved Kepler wrong and so on. Now by proving wrong, most of the time it's just a slight correction in the math under special circumstanses. I don't need to use Relativistic equations to solve everyday problems, because under everyday situations, Relativity reduces to Newtonian physics. But the point is, Einstein didn't modify or try to explain away evidence just so the great Isaac Newton whouldn't be proven wrong. He published his findings, and won great fame and fortune for it.

That's how science works. It takes no faith to believe in evolution, it just takes a reasonable scientific mindset. Granted, it's not as clear cut as Physics, but it's a hell of a lot more clear cut than Sociology. But If someone suddenly "disproved" evolution, scientists everywhere would be thrilled, not threatened. Everytime something new happens in science, it produces a new awakening in the field.

oh dear, the creationists have arrived...

Hear hear philcore.

Come on, trim. What happened to politeness?

I don't go around saying how boring soccer is or how terrible British food tastes.

I never understood how no one could see the obvious compromise between creationism and evolution. (Although I don't believe in this compromise):
Evolution is the way god created life as we know it. The process of evolution and darwinism is how god gets things done. Can we all be happy now?

I am quite more tolerant than that. quite a few of my friends are devout christians.
I was proving something to myself.
someone once said "I like your christ, but I do not like your christians for they are so unlike your christ"

thank the few of you who didnt erupt into anger immediately.

do unto others invictus, you cant pick and choose when you will follow the tenets of your religion.
also, jew zombie. jewish guy who dies then got back up. jew zombie.

I really liek the book of habbukuk (sp?)
I think because I can see alot of correlations between it and current world events

Do onto others? What have I done besides call you out on being a douche bag? That seems just in line with my religion.

You're infuriating.

regarding prophecies - I always thought it was a little strange that Jesus purposely found a donkey to ride into Jeruselem on just so a particular prophecy would be fulfilled. He actually said "Bring me a donkey so that I can ride into the town on it and fulfill the prophesy about me riding into town on it"

In my mind, if you KNOW about the prophesy, and you fulfill it on purpose - that profesy is null and void. So let's not count the donkey one, ok?

i was trying to be polite invictus and repeat what sic said just in a more polite way. (btw you could try saying the other things but compared to american football, and your fabulously sweet food you wouldnt really have a leg to stand on :p)