lol...okay.

Your question was "How do you change those taught these lessons by their parents and teachers and government officials since childbirth?"

Are they taught to hate Jews? Or are they shown that Jews hate them?

As thrilling as it would be Darwyn, I will not debate you here. You have shown a tendency to mock, to belittle, to call people stupid if their views disagree with yours, or call them (me personally) a supporter of baby-killing. I responded previously merely to clarify a point, not to debate. You have no wish to debate, but to insult.

You are right Dingle...my tendency to call people stupid lies directly with my frustration in seeing people honestly try to make the argument that Arabs hate Jews just because...and believe it. For what it's worth, you have my apologies.

But don't mistake my passion (or as you would call it stubbornness) for a poor argument. I'm just trying to open yours and others minds. It seems that when it comes to Israel, there is a one way street of opinion...and that is that whatever Israel does is okay. No one here has ever argued that Israel doesn't have a right to defend herself. Yet that's what you continually fall back on!

I've repeatedly pointed out what the crux of the problem is. And there hasn't been ANY examination of it at all on your part. You are seemingly running from this poiont by sticking to your Arabs-hate-Jews-just-because baseless argument.

Let me say that that is not an argument. So as much as you wish to not debate me, rest assured, you haven't. There has never been a debate Dingle! Until you want to examine what really is the cause, you have been and are blowing smoke...defending Israel on a point everyone can agree on (a right to defense) and on a point that is entirely baseless (arabs hate jews).

But please, don't let me stop you from "debating". I agree with Chris on just about everything here...and he is far more level-headed than I am. If you wish to continue with him, I promise to stay out of it.

I don't mistake your passion. I mistake your execution. By calling people stupid and babykillers, you turn more people away from your cause than you bring to your cause. Apologies notwithstanding, you believe that people who disagree with you are either simple or uneducated. I assure you I am neither.

And I don't believe you are trying to 'open my mind'. You are trying to cave my skull in with rants and insults.

And you haven't stopped me from debating. You have stopped me from debating with you.

I am a pragmatist. I am fully aware of what is seen as an injustice in 1948 as seen from the Arab point of view, nor do I disagree with their interpretation as such. But there is no going back. Neither acknowledgement nor apologies will solve the issue, and its gone far far beyond what happened in 1948.

You ask me repeatedly to consider how the Arabs felt in '48, which believe me I have. Now tell me what the decimated remains of European Jewry, the ones who established Israel, were thinking in 1948. And as an exercise, try to think about it without your last sentence being 'but the arabs had nothing to do with that' or 'but it shouldn't be at the expense of the arabs'. Just for kicks, try that.

"I am fully aware of what is seen as an injustice in 1948 as seen from the Arab point of view"

Apparently, you do not with a comment like this...

"Now tell me what the decimated remains of European Jewry, the ones who established Israel, were thinking in 1948...try to think about it without your last sentence being 'but the arabs had nothing to do with that' or 'but it shouldn't be at the expense of the arabs'."

You are justifying injustice with MORE injustice?

Correct me if I'm wrong here Dingle...but are you saying that even though you understand the Arab's plight, it is still okay to continue plighting them?

And what does that say? That you favor Jews over Arabs? Why?

I agree with you that "there is no going back"....that Arabs and Jews must figure out a way to coexist. But take a look at the original partition plan of '48 and compare it to a map of Israel today.

That's called colonization. That isn't defensive by any definition of the word.

When you combine these two basic injustices, you will realize the problem. You say you realize it, but you really don't. It oozes from your words.

I am not trying to justify anything. I am trying to get YOU to think about how its viewed from the side you disagree with, like you keep asking me to do. Think about what happened in 1948 from the Israeli side and you will realize why their (not mine, I am not Israeli) is what it is.


""I am fully aware of what is seen as an injustice in 1948 as seen from the Arab point of view"

Apparently, you do not with a comment like this.."

Nice creative editing. You missed the rest of my sentence. "I am fully aware of what is seen as an injustice in 1948 as seen from the Arab point of view, nor do I disagree with their interpretation as such."

I understand what Zionist Jews wanted. But their desire for a homeland does not trump the Arabs desire to stay on theirs. Nor does it give the Israeli government the continued right to displace them.

Get it?

What I'm saying here is, I SEE the Zionist Jews side...and no matter how you slice it, it's wrong to displace a population for any reason.

What you seem to be saying is that you see the Arabs side, but it doesn't really matter because, well the Holocaust was just terrible.

Is that a correct assessment?

They had been killed in pogroms for centuries, and had just lost 6 million of their number (feel free to dispute that too if you'd like). They were offered a small homeland in those parts of the mandate in which they had a majority, however they happened to have gotten there. They were finally offered a homeland and a chance to defend themselves, the few that were left.

I'd say in their eyes that trumps just about anything.

"I'd say in their eyes that trumps just about anything."

The Arabs eyes be damned! Yes, that's exactly my point. :)

And in 1948, that was the Jewish reality. It wasn't Arabs be damned. It was EVERYONE be damned, we need a homeland, we need to protect ourselves because no one else will. And just as you justify Arab violence... excuse me, just as you explain Arab violence by saying 'Israel did this, Israel did that first'... So if you want to go back to 1948 to explain the problems of today, the Jewish people have, in their eyes, a justifiable reason for wanting Palestine to be theirs. So if Arabs today are angry because of what happened to them in 1948 and you are going to use that as a basis for suicide bombings, the Jews of today are angry because of 1900 years of persecution at the hands of Europeans.

So when you want to stop comparing whose victimhood is greater...

What I'm about to say is a bit tongue in cheek, but at least the Arabs have the decency to exact revenge on those who wronged them.

I'm not comparing whose victimhood is greater...YOU ARE! It's the basis of your entire argument! That because Jews suffered, it's okay for Arabs to suffer. That's precisely the attitude that has inflamed the Middle East since 1948. Don't you get it?

You are doing nothing more than playing the Holocaust™ card.

Thats not what I'm saying at all. I was saying that if you want to justify what happens today because of what happened in 1948, I'm saying you can also justify what happened in 1948 by what happened before that.

I never said it was ok for the Arabs to suffer. I'm saying its understandable, justifiable, that Jews wanted a homeland, and when it was offered to them, they took the opportunity.

"I was saying that if you want to justify what happens today because of what happened in 1948, I'm saying you can also justify what happened in 1948 by what happened before that."

So 2000+ years is equivalent to 60+ years when correcting an injustice?

Well, my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was killed by your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather, so that gives me the right to arrest you?

The Roman empire was huge! I don't see any reason why Italy shouldn't rule of Europe right now, do you?

Hell, Iran and Iraq should claim Pakistan and India thanks to Alexander the Great.

I don't know what the limits are for correcting an injustice...but the fact still remains that one group of people shouldn't be made to suffer just because another group did.

You cannot bring justice by being unjust. Period.

No, its not 2000+ years. its 1939-1944. As opposed to 1948. Its just as fresh.

And the Jews weren't looking for justice. They were looking for survival.

well, that just makes it worse, doesn't it? you mentioned the Jewish people wanting a home...well, they were kicked out of their home some 2000+ years ago.

What happened between 1939 and 1944 wasn't the Arabs problem to correct. They were under no obligation to recognize the crimes of the west. Were they?

Go see my message of 10:47am. I'm done.

"And the Jews weren't looking for justice. They were looking for survival."

I'm just throwing this out there...but have you ever wondered why the Jews were kicked out of wherever they went? I don't know, but it just occurred to me.

Does the world just hate them?

lol...well, presumably you DO think they had an obligation to recognize the crimes of the west.

Good to know.

"well, presumably you DO think they had an obligation to recognize the crimes of the west."

i was going to start yet another message with 'Thats not what I said.', but then i realized its pointless. Just like I had to drop out of the last thread when you started calling me a babykiller (which you apologized for in this thread), I realize that its certainly not unintentional on your part to continue to try to have me acknowledge saying things i never said.

its the sign of either a poor debater or someone who isn't comfortable with the fact of his cause that needs to try to put words into someone else's mouth. You can't debate what I've actually put into words, but need to try to interpret, extrapolate and twist because your 'passion' blinds you (or your blindness blinds you) to what you are actually reading.

To answer DJ, in this case, the government must counter attack. The goals of the organization are to evict Israel. They can't sit idly by. And if they do, more citizens would be killed over time than in the counterattack. I do not count soldiers on tour among civilians. They have chosen to put their lifes on the line to protect those citizens.

Darwyn,
I tend to be sympathetic to the Palestinians (as I usually take the side of the underdog)... at the same time I find Hamas to be repulsive in their rhetoric and their methods. I see the mainstreaming of the PLO and Fatah as signs that people change - and that we can heal from the wounds of the past... yet I am saddened each time either the IDF or Hamas does their level best to reopen those wounds and keep the fight going. This all said, how do you justify everything Hamas does (correct me if I'm wrong in that assertion) while vilifying Israel. Look - there is ample reason to vilify both... and ample reason to justify both... It seems quite partisan and blind for you to only justify one side and only vilify the other... it seems that you are falling into the same trap that you accuse ardent Israel supporters of doing - simply from the other side. I don't see that kind of thinking as being a source for a solution. (Either here as a debate, or in the "real world").

Question: Should all wronged peoples get their ancestral home back? If so, how do you propose returning the new world to the Native Americans, the UK to the Celts or perhaps the Britons, Australlia to the Aborigines, New Zealand to the Maoris, etc.? Or as one set of graffiti put it (each subsequent entry by a different writer): "All N------ back to Africa""All Ch---- back to China""All Hon---- back to Europe""All life back to the sea".

*sigh* I asked a pretty straightforward question.

"They were under no obligation to recognize the crimes of the west. Were they?"

A simple Yes or No would have sufficed. But you wanted me to "interpret, extrapolate and twist" (well, maybe not twist) your words by suggesting I see your other post where you didn't directly answer the question.

To be honest, you haven't been clear in most of this thread. In fact, now that I reread this thread, you answered very few of my questions directly.

--------------------
Q1) It has nothing to do with the illegal settlements? Has nothing to do with that same 3 year old watching his mommy die at the hands of the IDF? Has nothing to do with bulldozing homes? Has nothing to do with destroying farms?

A1) I never stated WHY they were raised that way Darwyn, whether justified or not.

--------------------------
Q2) Are they taught to hate Jews? Or are they shown that Jews hate them?

A2) ?

--------------------
Q3) Correct me if I'm wrong here Dingle...but are you saying that even though you understand the Arab's plight, it is still okay to continue plighting them?

A3) ?
-----------------------

I've asked you many questions and you don't answer them. So you can feel indignant all you want about "that's not what I said". but it would serve you better to say what you actually mean.

My point has been clear in this thread and the last one that can be summed up with what I wrote: "it's wrong to displace a population for any reason"

Your point is what, again? That the Holocaust trumps everything? Let's set the record straight here. Cuz this is what I'm getting:

"They were raised believing Jews were evil"

"Now tell me what the decimated remains of European Jewry, the ones who established Israel, were thinking in 1948"

"Think about what happened in 1948 from the Israeli side and you will realize why their (not mine, I am not Israeli) is what it is."

"They had been killed in pogroms for centuries, and had just lost 6 million of their number"

"They were finally offered a homeland and a chance to defend themselves"

"It was EVERYONE be damned, we need a homeland, we need to protect ourselves because no one else will"

"I'm saying its understandable, justifiable, that Jews wanted a homeland, and when it was offered to them, they took the opportunity."

"And the Jews weren't looking for justice. They were looking for survival."

Every single comment alludes to the Holocaust in one form or another. Without directly saying it, your entire argument is that because the Jews suffered, it's okay to displace Arabs and let them suffer.

Why is that okay? Tell me how the Holocaust makes UN resolution 181 righteous. You are engaging in the exact principles that are causing destruction in the middle east: A disregard for the Arab point of view.

As for the baby killer comment, again I apologize, I don't really think you like killing babies. That comment was a direct result of your comment that went something like: It's a tragedy, but they deserved it for voting for Hamas. It was an obvious attempt to feign sympathy and shrug it off.

The reason that the Jews got Israel was not solely because of ancestry. We got it because we needed out own state. Every other religion in the world has a country that is predominately people of that religion. Christianity and Islam in particular. Thing got nasty in the holocaust, and the Jews ha nowhere to run, and no one to look out for us. May I remind you that the reason the Allies went to war with Hitler was not because of the Holocaust, but because he had invaded Poland. With no one looking out for European Jews, they were pretty much screwed. That is why Israel was created. Ancestral homeland probably factored into location, as well as Britain controlled it, and it wasn't Britain, making it "ok" to push the people there around, but ancestral homeland does not factor in too much to its founding.

I always find it strange that people can get so heated about this issue but remain relatively lukewarm to other injustices that so pervade our flawed world. I don't see that any of you have any personal stake in the matter...

DJ, honestly, I realize that modern Palestinians are heavily indoctrinated, but that doesn't mean they hate unconditionally and that the conflict is perpetuated solely by their indoctrinated hate. The Palestinian peoples continue to have injustices thrust upon them by the gradual expansion of the state of Israel and the marginalization of their resources and their access to resources. I'm not saying that Israel hasn't suffered similar wrongdoings by violent Palestinians, but I find that dangerous (and incorrect) conclusions are drawn when it's thought that current Palestinians are incorrigibly anti-Semitic.

Look at all the Palestinians who have not suicide bombed or attacked Israel. The families who indoctrinate their children and send them to their deaths will soon find themselves without children and suicide bombers. The families who don't are the ones who will remain. When the IDF retaliates it inevitably kills innocent civilians, and the relatives of those innocent civilians who might have once disdained the violent practices of Hamas now find themselves, in their grief, succumbing to violence and revenge. If the IDF didn't retaliate, and welcomed Palestinians back into Israel, then I think you'd find that the violent rebellion would quickly lose it's fuel. There might initially be suicide bombings but eventually you run out of people willing to do that and you run out of new reasons to recruit people to that violent cause.

I sympathize with the suffering of the Jewish peoples but I absolutely do not recognize their claim to Israel. The ancestry is clearly no grounds and neither is religious text. Why would the Arabs have to carry the burden of a massive influx of people who do not assimilate but rather replace, when it was the Europeans who wronged them? When no other country in the world was willing to take on more than a token handful of Jews, a small Arab population was supposed to take on the rest? This is purely anecdotal but most of the Jews I know are not exactly keen on living in Israel and consider Canada their home. I imagine that much of the European Jewry would have much rather returned to their home, where they were born, and grew up, than move to some desert nation filled with rightfully hostile natives, even with the religious conviction... though I would not presume to speak for post-Holocaust European Jewry, this is simply my speculative opinion.

uestion: Should all wronged peoples get their ancestral home back? If so, how do you propose returning the new world to the Native Americans, the UK to the Celts or perhaps the Britons, Australlia to the Aborigines, New Zealand to the Maoris, etc.? Or as one set of graffiti put it (each subsequent entry by a different writer): "All N------ back to Africa""All Ch---- back to China""All Hon---- back to Europe""All life back to the sea".

The appropriate response is to allow anyone to live wherever they like and wherever they have the means to live. This is how the world works. When you move somewhere, no one is "displaced." You live there in peace, and abide the laws. If you don't like the laws you do what is legal to change them. If your race is discrimated against you do what is right but also peaceful and just (think MLK and Gandhi). All the people groups you mentioned have the right to do this, and so do the Palestinians. The Jews, in my opinion, went about it in a questionable manner, but the fact of the matter is they live where they live now, there's no changing that. It is now more up to the Palestinians to try to integrate back into Irsael the way Zionists integrated into Palestine, just as the people groups you mentioned integrated into their respective societies.

Moaning about past atrocities is always counter-productive. It breeds war and nothing else.