Meaning is where you find it. I've read the bible and found some of it to be quite interesting... and some to be poetic... and some to be deadly boring... and some of it to be completely repellent. Books that have inspired me the most include: "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl, "Toward a Psychology of Being" by Abraham Maslow, "Cat's Cradle" by Kurt Vonnegut... many, many others...

I am operationally an atheist... though technically an agnostic. With the universe and life and love so amazing I do not understand the need that some feel for something on the outside to explain things. ...particularly an anthropomorphic god that is simply a reflection of our hopes and fears and our mommy and daddy complexes.

...if there is a God, I expect it to be an incomprehensible thing... much like the universe itself. ...and like much of the universe, that god would likely not care a whit about us. Not a guy with a beard that fusses over the affairs of man, testing people, answering or ignoring prayers, etc. - like some kind of bizarre over-worked parent... obsessed for some reason with one ordinary planet out of countless trillions that surely exist... not only obsessed with that one planet, but obsessed with "his chosen people" - who quite coincidently were the same ones to have put pen to paper to write that particular holy book.

Why the ripping on dogma? I find dogma comforting. It means that people have thought a lot about religion and studied it intensely. I like having the structure.

Guess my religion. It starts with an "R," and ends with an "oman Catholic."

I disagree. I'm very open to the existence of a supreme being. I just don't see the evidence. If evidence were presented that I could not refute I would not be afraid to believe because I would still be true to myself.

That said, the miracles I see around us are usually coincidences or confirmation bias. Even disregarding seeing Jesus in cloud formations and on toast, I don't see legitimate miracles. People say things like I prayed for my Mom when she had cancer and she got better, ignoring the fact that it was most likely medicine that was responsible for her recovery. There hasn't been a miracle that science has been unable to explain. If someone regrew a limb through their faith I might be convinced but it's usually nothing that an atheist could not recover from, but they attribute it to God because they were expecting recovery. If there is no recovery they attribute the death to the God's mysterious plan. Please direct me to the miracles.

I don't need God to appreciate the awe of the universe and to appreciate my luck in having the chance to exist here. Science offers me a sense of spirituality that I think religious people demean. That said, I do not make value judgements based on faith because I find that quite arbitrary.

Invictus, I kind of appreciate Catholicism... it seems organic - and appeals to my appreciation of folk tales and myth (no offense intended here). Come to think of it, I have a similar feeling about other old religions... judaism, hinduism...

Well, having to read Siddhartha in English class kinda ruined Eastern religions for me. Pretentious piece of crap...

Catholicism is organic. The Mass runs along nice and predictably, though not as beautifully as a pre-Vatican II Tridentine Mass. The nutty Bible beaters of Catholicism are all in the history books and some lefty Latin American countries. The Church really runs like a university. One with little academic freedom, but not the monolith of Papal power these Protestants think. And Confession is the best deal under heaven.

Sure there's the guilt, but if a religion were easy how could it be true?

i like fairy tales and thats all religous texts are.thats not saying there is not a higher being but that organised religions are the biggest load of fear mongering, hate filled bollocks ever

2+2 is easy *and* true :P

So you should.

Religion is a myth. You might as well believe in Zeus and all that lot as in that spiteful bloke the Bible talks about.

I believe that something is out there. I really don't think there's even a religion that has it all right. There might be one or two close, but you can never be completely right. I don't even think there should be organized religion sometimes. A person's faith is his or her own choice, and categories make a person choose something in the majority. Caategories just let everbody see how the others look different from them, causing all sorts of problems.

I actually believe in reincarnation. I read a book a few years ago that completely defined what I felt. It makes sense to me. There is no good and evil, just different experiences for the soul to gain knowledge through. I do believe that there's a higher power in it somewhere though. If I'm wrong though, I think that's okay.

I'm stealing this, but here ya go:

Astronomical observations indicate that the universe has not always existed but came into being apparently out of nothing. These observations match the teachings of the Bible that also indicate that God created the universe out of nothing (see Ps. 33:6; Heb. 11:3; Rev. 4:11). In addition, the fossil record which many evolutionists site as the strongest evidence for their theory is, in fact, one of its greatest weaknesses. While many extinct species can be seen in the fossil record, even evolutionists admit that there is little evidence of intermediately life forms. The fossil record has not supported the theory of evolution by providing evidence of gradual changes from one species to another. On the contrary, new species appear suddenly and fully formed in the fossil record. Far from disproving the existence of God, scientific discoveries have made belief in the existence of God more plausible.
The more science learns about the complexity and sophistication of creation the harder it is to believe that it all happened by chance. For example, science has discovered that one strand of DNA can carry the same amount of information as a volume of an encyclopedia. No one coming upon an encyclopedia volume in a forest would assume that random forces and elements had produced it by chance. Such a conclusion would be rejected as totally implausible. Yet, the atheists offer the same kind of implausible conclusion when they are confronted with the amount of information contained in one DNA molecule. Belief in the existence of God requires faith, but recent scientific discoveries have revealed that theism does not require as much faith as atheism.

Yet the most convinving proof fro Christianity comes in the life and death of Jesus. Very few, and only the intellectually aloof historians would dispute the reality of a person named Jesus called the Christ. All these historians declare his existence, they affirm his death by Roman crucifixion and they equally affirm the reality that his tomb was empty three days later. This really only leaves us with a few options. 1. Jesus is the Christ raised from the dead. 2. The disciples stole the body. Or 3. The disciples went to the wrong tomb or just made it up. The third option is ridiculous because the Romans govt (who hated this new sect) would've just paraded the body around the city and revealed the lie. The second option is almost equally as absurd because the disciples were bumbling idiots before Jesus' ascension. Yet after they went on to die a martyrs death, bold and triumphant? They would've known they were lieing. Many people die for a lie that they believe is true (suicide bombers etc), yet nobody dies for a lie they KNOW is false. So for the disciples to have stolen the body, they would have had to inspire and carry out the greatest lie in the history of the world and to die horrific deaths to that end.

I'll take the first option.

Also, truth is truth. Our experience or our own "encounter" with God is irrelevant. I could have a dream that feels so real in which I'm a butterfly and all the butterflies in my tribe are worshipping me. It's nonsense regardless and it would only be absolute sillyness to base my life upon. I'm not sure when our culture dove into the "personal experience" pool but it's quite scary. If you never see a rape, does that mean rape does not happen? If you never have a personal encounter with a sociopath, does that mean they do not exist?

And I disagree with crispminis on his one post on morality. To summarize I believe he essentially said we've come to accept morals and judge virtue on the self-interests of our culture, and on our ability to co-operate.

If I am wrong in understanding what you were trying to say, correct me please. I just find this reasoning disturbing. Rape would be a very accepted cultural thing in this situation because it would pro-create. Morals ARE defined by God. If we remove God from the picture, nobody has any ground whatsoever so stand on in terms of defining a morality. You think that me not punching you in the face is good for our community? Well i believe that it is the absolute best thing to do. Where is the line?

No belief in God means we exist because of enormous chance and even greater time. Nobody would have any right to make any type of "moral" claim whatsoever on anyone else. And I simply don't believe the human race is "good" enough to just define what is better for the group. Tell that to the Nazi's and Communists and currently people in Darfur. I think it's naive to think we would put our community's best interest first. We would and still put ourselves first.

@bartdog dinosaurs? and also doesnt prove that the christian bible is right at all many other religions claim the world was created from nothing, also applying logic and occams razor to the disapearence of jesus's body would say (if it did actually disapear) that the disciples took it

I should've clarified that the first part of my first post was simply to enhance the reality that there is a creator God. I was arguing no religion at that point. Then my argument turned to Christianity.

And i would disagree that the "simplest solution" (occam's razoe) is that the disciples took the body. I explained why that is a pretty steep conclusion to historical events. In fact, I'd say the conclusion that takes the least leaps of faith in deciding what to conclude about the empty tomb is that Jesus rose from the dead.

That the disciples stole the body would be putting a lot of trust in some uneducated fishermen and Jews to pull off the greatest hoax of all time KNOWING it was a lie.

It's interesting to read through this thread and see people's attitudes toward God. Many of the posts have a very bitter/angry/mocking tone to them (although many of you have also been very respectful). Sometimes as a Christian I get tired of the double-standard. What I mean by that is that Christians are frequently accused of being bigoted/hate-filled/close-minded people. And yet, in discussions like this one it seems to me that the opposite is often true.

There is so much misunderstanding about the Christian faith and yet people think they already know it all and aren't interested in going a little deeper. For instance, the posts which talk about genocide in the old testament are very misguided. There was a whole lot more to that - the people groups who the Israelites were told to attack engaged in abominable practices like child sacrifice. They would heat up a stone idol that had outstretched arms until it was red hot and then they would take their LIVE firstborn child and burn it up on the idol.

The Bible explains that God commanded Israel to attack them as a judgment on those practices.

Also, the description of God that runs throughout the Old Testament is this:

"compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished."

@bartdogg nice sidestep on the dinosaurs bit, so you actual believe its less likely that some people broke into a tomb and moved a body then that dead person coming back to life?Ok im not bothering talking to you because i only talk to sane people

I appreciate the sarcasm.

and I didn't answer about the dinosaurs because it's a smokescreen if you're honest with yourself. If I give you compelling evidence/conclusions about dinosaurs and their fossil record etc, would you bow before Christ? I've never met one person who couldn't believe in Jesus as savior or even just a belief in God because they couldn't get over their dinosaur hangup.

And reread my posts. It's not as simple as "some people breaking in and moving a body". it's uneducated (in most cases) people pulling off an enormous hoax under the very watchful eye of the opposing Roman Govt. It's the life-change in these disciples/followers from bumbling morons to courageous preachers and leaders. It's knowing they were spreading a lie they knew was a lie, only to die horrific deaths.
It's the 500 people who saw the resurrected Jesus. Couldn't the Roman govt have just found one of these 500 supposed eyewitnesses and crushed the entire thing?

And thanks for the "sane" comment. You only proved Jacob's post correct.

no my sane comment had nothing to do with religion just that you think its more logical that someone rose from the dead than a body was moved.

trim, most people who aren't Christians and who seriously study this issue have come to the position that the disciples saw some sort of mass vision of Christ.

They pretty much all recognize that the argument that the disciples stole the body is really not a legitimate explanation given all the other factors surrounding the burial.

Of course, mass visions of Christ doesn't sound too compelling either to me =)

its all bollocks anyway but its still more logical the body was moved rather than raised from the dead

Puddle said:

@Thucydides, only if you believe that dreams can affect life, but that is a moot point. But if this is the only way in which the higher mind can interact with the world, it is, in my opinion, more of a spirit than a god

What's the difference? I think you may misunderstand me, anyway

Atheists, you have nothing to lose by following a religion, especially a religion where there is a positive afterlife.

that is the stupidest thing you have ever said

"Atheists, you have nothing to lose by following a religion, especially a religion where there is a positive afterlife."

* what if you die and God tells you you chose the wrong religion, for which he condemns you to SUPERHELL (much worse than normal Hell)?
* what if God can tell you are not really sincere? (goto SUPERHELL)
It's easier for me to just avoid religion completely and get on with my happy, productive, meaningful life.

trim101, why do you have to be so mean spirited about religion? What people believe in their private lives doesn't hurt you and you ought to be respectful. Right now you're just being a dick to get a rise out of people.

but it does though doesnt it july 7th in part to do with religion so it does effect me, and no im not being a dick at all

Equating people's most dearly held beliefs to fairy tales is being a dick.

So is equating all religious people to terrorists.