Leon is 100% correct. It is a matter of your point of view @Hauta. My point was more related to commemorative statues for the confederate fallen. They are spread across the south in almost every old cemetery. I didn't mention Jackson or Beauregard but even they, to some, may reflect aspects of historical memory important to some. Even removing them would be an act of censorship.

@leon, "That depends on your point of view"

I reject your argument. Anyone who hates Washington for keeping slaves (and it is their right to do so) would still have to admit that his monument is not there to commemorate slavery. Similarly, I don't know anyone who honestly believes that a statue of Stonewall Jackson is meant to commemorate southern support for "American Independence" etc. If that was the case, they should just replace Stonewall Jackson statues with statues of Samuel Adams, etc.

because then we must have an arbiter of what is right and what is wrong.

Nazis could use YOUR principles, and ban jewish statues. at the end of the day, you have to assign one person or group to determine what is socially acceptable and what is not.

if you leave it up to a vote, then you're going to go down the road of mob rule. this is not a slippery slope, there are countless episodes in history where the majority has stripped rights away form the minority.

@ND, I would love to see Jackson and Beauregard's historical memory kept in a museum for all to see. But their memory is false without the entire story. What happened to "fair and balanced" your people adore so much? And why should we honor the confederate fallen? If the south had won, they could have done it. But, fact is, the Yanks won, so they are branded rebels and should be shamed.

@Hauta

Yes, I believe symbols and insignia of any kind of dictatorial regime should be outlawed. Such hateful objects are definitely not covered by free speech.

I don't have a problem with letting people deny there was a Holocaust. If you punish that and want to be consistent, you will have to punish the denial of any kind of large-scale atrocity, and there will be no end to it. On the other hand, if you decide to stop at Holocaust, you're being a hypocrite. The best course of action would be to let the loonies deny Holocaust all they like. It's not as if there aren't tons of evidence, museums and books about it.

@Hauta

also, there's a strong argument that the confederate flag isn't commemorating slavery. it's simply pride for a culture. yes that culture had bad things in the past such as slavery, but it "is not there to commemorate slavery."

you see, you're taking your own personal interpretation of flags, and Stonewall Jackson, and applying them into forceful action.

in fact, stonewall jackson was a GREAT man. he tough Sunday School classes to slaves in the South, and was from a poor family who's dad died of Typhoid. to this day, the Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church of Roanoke, Virginia still has a memorial dedicated to him.

THAT IS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN CHURCH.

but no, you AUTOMATICALLY assume "southern general = slavery"

DO A TINY BIT OF RESEARCH.


but no. you act on feelings, not on truth. and that is why this country will never delegate powers to people who see EVERYTHING as connected to slavery.

@Yanik, not sure the Nazis would have left any Jewish statues standing (if there were any to begin with). Besides, deciding which statue should exist is different from which statue should NOT exist. If Germans wanted to erect a statue to commemorate the civic virtue of scientific achievement, they can choose Max Planck. Anyway, I'm not sure I get your point.

@Hauta: Unlike you, I do not believe in censorship and I am not an authoritarian. Any answer I could give you to your question would be rejected because your mind is so completely warped in totalitarianism/authoritarianism. I'm deeply sad that people like you can enact policies based on authoritarian (my way of thinking or the highway) and censorship. It's sad, but something people have to come to grips with.

@Zmaj, I confine Holocaust denial as a crime to Germany only because of history. I support free speech about it elsewhere for the reason you describe.

honestly, your attack on Jackson here is unwarranted. your lack of knowledge in history is showing, and i'd personally recommend that when you go as far to CONDEMN and a man, you make damn sure you know what the hell you're talking about. that's why in the US, we have this freedom of speech thing. no SJWs censoring things they don't understand

@Yanik, no one looks at a Stonewall Jackson statue and thinks it's primarily about his work with the church. That is a dishonest argument.

what was his work? was he "pro-slavery" in his work??? is that all you think the civil war was about? most of the south didn't even own slaves, most of those boys who went to war were protecting their families back home. the North had a campaign of TOTAL WAR

You are making assumptions about things you clearly know nothing about @Hauta

maybe YOU don't see it that way, but that's your own fault! you ignore ACTUAL historical FACT because you FEEL it MUST be racist. in truth, he had more sympathy for the light of slaves than reassignment. he had problems because of the religious arguments at the time condemning slaves by god's will, but that's something he fought with his entire life.

looking at this statue and thinking "racist" is a problem with the observer, not REALITY.

@Yanik, are you saying that when you look at a Stonewall Jackson statue you think primarily of his non-Civil War virtues? Are there really so few people in New Orleans that are virtuous that they had to pick a guy who also happened to be a rebel?

jesus, i think that every water fountain reminds me of segregation, so they must be commemorating racism, so we should ban them!

what? historical facts don't back up the idea that all water fountains stand for racist entrenched values???

doesn't matter, because i personally feel offended

Oh Leon dearest, what a laughable evolution.. Your purported "right of a freedom to hate". Gee whiz, I suppose we'd better forget about the genuinely disadvantaged people of the World and make defending the rights of pampered snowflake reactionaries to hate whomsoever they want an absolute priority.

@Hauta

no, but they also felt that he wasn't someone to be entirely ignored simply for believing in a smaller federal state. the tariff of abominations nearly destroyed the south the first time around, and there was honest fear that Lincoln would favor the industrial north in ways beyond repealing slavery.

Unlike you @MajorMitchell, we don't believe that freedom of speech should be censored in the United States to reflect whatever Social Justice Warrior/Cultural Marxist beliefs that you personally hold.

@Yanik, huh? I don't remember mentioning slavery. Is that what Stonewall Jackson means to you or are you just projecting it on me?

if at the end of the day you're going on the purest "virtuous" men, then why not just make EVERY statue into Obama. Washington had slaves, REPLACE WITH OBAMA! Every single person had flaws, but i personally believe Obama was majestic and pure, so i demand that only he qualifies.

suck it dudes, gotta go to sleep!

Oh god, please don't give the SJW's any ideas James.

@Hauta

no, but given your earlier comment:

"I reject your argument. Anyone who hates Washington for keeping slaves (and it is their right to do so) would still have to admit that his monument is not there to commemorate slavery. Similarly, I don't know anyone who honestly believes that a statue of Stonewall Jackson is meant to commemorate southern support for "American Independence" etc. If that was the case, they should just replace Stonewall Jackson statues with statues of Samuel Adams, etc."

you obviously had drawn a dichotomy between two people of potential moral reprehension, but the focus of the statue should be considered.

YOU specifically say that american independence isn't the only reason why Jackson was viewed, after contrasting that with Washington for his other achievements. of course by mentioning slavery with washington, it's not a difficult next leap of logic. in fact, it's a natural one

the funny thing is, you look at a next logical step, and you have people going to prison for such beliefs.

and we know that isn't a slippery slope, because the far left has been pushing us to be more socialized and centralized like Europe, and well check the OP: this is an advocacy for the same principles

MajorMitchell said: "I suppose we'd better forget about the genuinely disadvantaged people of the World..." Where does this come from? I'll tell you where. We even have a joke about it.

When a delegation from communist Russia came to the US, the Americans showed them around. At one point, they showed a skyscraper and said: "And this is the tallest building in the world."

The Russians weren't impressed. "We have a taller one."

Some time later, when the American delegation went to the Soviet Union, the Russians showed them around. At one point, an American remembered the other visit and said: "Oh yes, you have the tallest building in the world. Where is it?"

The Russians took them to a skyscraper that was three hundred feet tall.

Surprised, the Americans said: "But this is not the tallest building in the world. Why do you say it is?"

The Russians replied: "And why do you oppress the blacks?"

...I hope the humor isn't lost in translation...

Right now the largest concentration of Holocaust deniers are in Arab countries like Iran that hold conferences to bring together supporters because they can use it as a starting point to deny Israel's right to exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial#Propaganda_in_the_media
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/irans-holocaust-denial-is-part-of-a-malevolent-strategy/2016/05/27/312cbc48-2374-11e6-aa84-42391ba52c91_story.html?utm_term=.48ba17e33aff

Germany in trying to break with its past didn't even allow the airing of Hogan's Heroes until it was revised to make the Nazis even more incompetent than in the original US version.

Regarding racism against Blacks and other minorities, it's still happening on college campuses and getting worse since Trump got elected. Some view Trump as making it acceptable with his campaign against Mexico and retweeting material from white supremacy sites.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/16/us/racist-incidents-college-campuses/index.html

"Regarding racism against Blacks and other minorities, it's still happening on college campuses and getting worse"

Colleges do nothing but pander to blacks and other minorities. Here is an actual email UC Santa Cruz sent to students regarding the violent takeover of a campus building by a black student group:

"Please reschedule or make appropriate accommodations for any campus business you have scheduled today (May 3) at Kerr Hall, which has been taken over by students.

The campus is sensitive to the needs being expressed by the students. Campus leaders have reached out to the students to discuss how the campus can better support them."

In the end UCSC decided to vindicate their use of blackmail to achieve goals by agreeing to all their conditions.

They make sure to be sensitive to the "needs" of unlawful protesters before the needs of actual students who go there to learn and don't cause trouble.