"Race and sexual preference are entirely different things."

They are the same in the sense that neither is a choice or a disease.

"Homosexual it is a sin because it goes against the natural design."

This "natural design" concept is just another one of your irrational religious idiosyncrasies, so what you're saying here is still nothing more than that it is a sin because your imaginary friend says it is.

Even if I were to go along with this concept though... homosexual behavior occurs in nature not only amongst humans but also many other species so obviously it is part of the "natural design".


"Life is promoted when a man and a woman unite. There isn't a natural means of doing this between two men or two women."

So, following your own logic, sex with women over 50 years of age is immoral too, as well as sex with younger women outside of the couple of days around their ovulation. Of course, any form of birth control is immoral too. That's not what you're saying though. You object to sex not in service of procreation only when it is homosexuals. Again, this shows that you are quite obviously a bigot.

Even aside from menopause and ovulation though, the prevalence of infertility amongst heterosexual couples is not at all that different from the prevalence of homosexuality. Why would you find one to be immoral and the other not, unless you are a bigot.

Besides, there is more to promoting life than fucking. Homosexual people promote life by their contributions to society. They can be doctors, farmers or have any other job that is crucial to the promotion of life. They can also adopt children that would otherwise rot away in some third world orphanage.

Again, by denying even the existence of the obvious contribution by many homosexuals to the promotion of life while simultaneously applauding men for this just because they pumped their dick in and out of a vagina for a few minutes and then ejaculated, you are again showing how much of a bigot you really are.

@ag: "@kasimax Do you think the idea is ridiculous that someone can be born to prefer the same sex, just as someone can be born with a penchant towards other inclinations?"

no, i think the opposite is true. my "ridiculous" comment was directed at people who think sexual orientation is a choice.

@ag

"Example, Mary is very kind and nice, but she has an addiction to alcohol. Joseph has no addiction to alcohol, but he's a chronic liar. Samuel, while having no additions or lying issues, struggles with depression and suicide."

These are all afflictions that, as opposed to homosexual behaviors between consenting adults, a) have a myriad of negative consequences for the person afflicted as well as for their social environment, b) can be treated with significant chance of success (as evidenced by scientific research) through psychotherapy and/or medication.

@ oscar So you are assuming there are not successful programs, treatments, and therapy for a person who is gay and wants to refrain from it? I believe there are, with documented success. Just like any other natural born tendency, therapy will not change the person (AA does not make alcoholism vanish after the program is completed), but helps the person deal with and control whatever issue they are getting the therapy for.

@ag: the difference to alcoholism is that it comes out of the humans. alcohol is an outer influence, and more "unnatural" than homosexuality, if you will.

@kasimax: I fully disagree. Alcoholism's core problem is an addictive personality. If alcohol did not exist, people with this problem would still be bent on something. Their problems in life would still exist, but through another avenue. The therapy given to an alcoholic is not how to refrain from drinking beer, liquor, and wine. It's to deal with the root cause.

@ag: another differnece: people who are addicted to alcohol usually know that this is bad, they just can't change it. same goes for depression and lying. i have yet to meet a homosexual who thinks homosexuality is bad and needs to be "cured".

@ag: so you think homosexuality is a problem? what exactly is the problem there?

@kasimax: You would probably meet those types of people if you were around more Christians. Just because they are not in your circle of influence does not mean it doesn't exist.

Also, your question if I think homosexuality is a problem...

If you're asking for my personal belief, well - I believe there is one God. And there is one way to get to God (Jesus & active change of life towards this). My biggest problem with homosexuality is how rare it is for one to have this same belief as I do. And since I really believe there is only one way, then it's really a distressing thing. By definition of what I believe, a homosexual would have to recognize that God is the only way, believe in Jesus, and actively live his life towards this. I don't want homosexuals condemned, disparaged, infringed upon. I'd much rather they see one God; one way -- and then work towards it, just like I am working against the problems I was born with and try to overcome.

This is why I take the stance that gays are born this way. Because we're all born different ways with different strengths and weaknesses. Different behaviors and desires.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but whatever. You asked what I personally believe.

Oh, so homosexuals are evil because they don't like the doctrine that claims they're evil. Well that makes sense.

It makes sense that homosexuals don't like the doctrine that says they are wrong.

@ag: working towards god if you have a drinking problem is "easy". you just seek help, and start to drink less and less; after all, that's what aa is for. how would that "cure" look with homosexuality? would you show your friends pictures of naked women? would you tell them to stop loving the person they love? i doubt that jesus would've approved of this.

@ag: and please show me a friend of yours who's in love with a person, but thinks this is wrong and he should stop. you can't simply stop loving a person. or can you? if you could, the concept of love would be ridiculous.

@kasimax: There is no cure for traits people are born with. You used the word "cure", and I've purposefully have been saying the opposite.

@ag: please answer a few questions, just so i know exactly where you stand.

do you think that a man and a woman can truly love each other?
if yes, is that love dependent on a sexual relationship, or is this just an addition?
do you think that infertile couples, or women over 60, should have a sexual relationship?
do you think that the only point of love is to reproduce?
and, finally, do you think that to men or two women can truly love each other?

this should clear a few things up.

I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that God's got a sick sense of humour
And when I die, I expect to find him laughing.

@Tru Ninja

Oh, what I forgot to say before. Even if I would go along with your silly notion that somehow being black is natural while being homosexual is not, that still isn't relevant to my point that you hate homosexuals just as much as the hypothetical Tru Judoka hates black people. It just explains why you hate them so much, i.e. because you belief them to be "unnatural" which is in and of itself already a hateful belief. By way of illustrating this further: the hypothetical Tru Judoka believes that being black goes against the natural design.


@ag

"@ oscar So you are assuming there are not successful programs, treatments, and therapy for a person who is gay and wants to refrain from it? I believe there are, with documented success."

Unless you consider debunked biased studies with faulty methodology as "documented success," then no I believe there are no such programs. I challenge you to proof me wrong though. Link to those alleged documented successes. Otherwise no one should take that shit seriously.


"Also, your question if I think homosexuality is a problem... <snip>"

Aside from your apparent discomfort with people that don't believe the exact same bullshit that you believe, you still didn't provide even a single example of how homosexuality is a problem. In short, what you're saying comes down to it being a problem merely because you believe it is a problem. Well, I and many others reject your believes for which there is no proof, so...

Please instead explain, without invoking any beliefs in the supernatural, in what way a homosexual poses a problem to himself or anyone else just by being homosexual and/or having consensual gay sex with other homosexuals. Preferably also indicate how these problems compare to those that depressed people, addicts and people in their social environment face.

I can smell the bigotry in this thread from a mile away.

@oscar. You ignorantly cross a broad line between the disdain for a lifestyle with hate for a person. According to your narrow view of things, any parent that hates when his or her child does something wrong must hate their child. According to your flawed logic, any parent that doesn't allow their child to do anything they please has hate in their heart.

If you define hate as wanting what you view as the best for someone when they don't understand what tjat best is, then you're sorely misguided.

At this point, I'm done arguing. I've said my peace and you can view me any way you want. Just know that I don't hate you or anyone else regardless of how you do or don't understand things.

...

Man, the legendary liberal-progressive mind-reading is on full display ITT.

In most conventional uses of the term "bigot," hatred of the targeted group is typically considered a prerequisite to successful use of the term. Whether or not one thinks Tru is misguided in his views on homosexuality is one matter, but not only do I not read any hatred in his posts, I question the charity of those who do - it would take some decidedly unfair or irrational interpretations of his post to come away with the impression that he hates gay people.

@Tru Ninja

"You ignorantly cross a broad line between the disdain for a lifestyle with hate for a person."

I don't think you hate a person. I think you hate an entire category of persons comprising about 10% of humankind. Also, being gay is not a lifestyle choice any more than being short is.

But hey, thanks for confirming that you have "disdain" for them. If that word suits you better than hate... fine by me. They sound pretty much synonymous to me.

"According to your flawed logic, any parent that doesn't allow their child to do anything they please has hate in their heart."

Since you've already called them immoral and diseased, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you have no problem comparing them with children either. That doesn't sound condescending at all.

Well, the hypothetical Tru Judoka also thinks that black people are much like children. Them black people sure need some guidance in making the right choices for themselves about their own skin color. Fortunately Tru Judoka is happy to lovingly provide such guidance.


"Just know that I don't hate you"

Thanks. I don't hate you either.

Aw PE, that's so cute. You always see the best in people. Bless you.

I agree PE. I don't see that bigotry can apply. More and more it seems like oscar sees anything other than joyous approval or strict silence on this issue is hatred. Nothing Tru said actually amounts to hatred or bigotry. Oscar does have a delicious loathing of Christianity that is blatantly obvious in his posts. I'm struck by the irony there.

TruNinja has said: "disdain for a lifestyle (homosexuality)"
Okay, we have disdain. Is that enough for bigotry?
"(acting on) being homosexual is a sin"
Okay, so it's a horrible crime against god to have consensual sex between adults (justification being, "it doesn't promote life"). Great, that doesn't even count as bigotry anymore.
He has compared being homosexual to "lie, cheat, steal, kill and destroy" and being "greedy, covetous, self-seeking, selfish, wrathful". That is just plain horrible.

This is just a small selection. Tru Ninja believes that gays are worse simply for being gay. That sounds like bigotry to me.

Yet in every statement he was making the assertion that the act is wrong. At no point did he hatred or even antipathy for the people themselves. You can easily separate the behavior from the person and it seems that is exactly what he is doing. He doesn't agree with the behavior. By the same reasoning it would be hatred or bigotry any time anyone disagrees with anyone else's behavior on any subject.

@Crazy Anglican
1) What is wrong with gay sex? Who is harmed (don't respond "my feelings")? Why should gay people not do it?

2) For the sake of argument, let's take this. Being religious is a horrible thing. Since believing in a higher power is a behavior that can be split from the person, I am not being bigoted when I say that being religious is a horrible thing, and you should never do it, and I will support legislation that oppresses you for doing it. Do you agree that this is a reasonable thing for me to do? If not, why?

That depends. Will you also justify your antipathetic feelings toward religious people based on the primitive views of a bunch of gay people that have been dead for thousands of years?