typo... should read: I certainly recall one game I played with him, that was after he had assured the community that he *was clean*...

Personally, I'd say we trust the mods on this one. If you guys, as a team, think you can effectively monitor him (as a sort of probation I guess), then I say go for it. We can consider this an experiment in rehabilitation. No third chances, obviously. But this will be a good way to test this sort of thing. Again, only if the mod team is positive they can keep him monitored.

Well, in reading back, all of my concerns are null and void. So go for it, I guess.

Your reasons sound all nice and good but he could slip a new account in while the mods werrn't looking or reactivate an.uncaught account and use it to multi, destroying a game or twenty before the mods got back online to ban him. You cannot say for ceryain he couldn't do it. Hell, I could use my wife's phone and.run an.account just on it such that you all would never know it was me. Simply play gunboats and never post on the forum and play such that it looked like I was trying but incompetent.

He didn't murder anyone and it is only a game so give him another chance. If it doesn't work out, I'll bring the hammer and nails.

Hmmm... Interesting...

My first reaction is the exact same as Yonni's, mscott's and Draugnar's... I remember playing a game with Agent K (looks like it did get canceled, I could not find it in my history, I wanted to re-read some of the press), and *during* the game it came out that he cheated and/or was being banned, though I'm not sure of the exact timing. Anyway, I remember, in that game, asking Agent K about the situation, briefly, and I also remember he was quite flippant with his response and unapologetic, which left a bad impression with me, and thus my first reaction...

As for what to do now?

First off, I think the guy has the ability to play, that he can play well, and that he does not need to cheat... That said, who cares? He ruined numerous games, harmed numerous people, and now we're supposed to just let him start over, with a clean slate? Doesn't seem fair or right...

What if he was forced to use the screen name "Previously Banned Agent K"? He *should* have a scarlet letter (as previously stated), an extremely blatantly obvious one, and after all the people he screwed over, I see nothing wrong with an "eye for an eye" approach that sees him with a clear disadvantage for at least as long as he was cheating, which I think “4 years” was thrown around...

I also think he should not be allowed to play anonymous games, even if that cannot be coded, he can just be told if he joins an anonymous game, ever, he will be permanently banned and that can be part of his on-going monitoring. Being forced to play only non-anon with the screen name "Previously Banned Agent K", and Agent K agreeing to that, would be *part* of a rehabilitation program that I could potentially get on board with.

I also think Previously Banned Agent K should not be allowed to be listed in the Ghost Ratings, take away some of the "perks" of playing on this site, as further punishment for his cheating knocking down other people's GR when it should not have been. His new account can be tagged as a banned player just like his old account, and thus automatically excluded from GR.

All that said, I don't know the case as well as the mods, and I don't care to know it that well. I will accept whatever decision they go with, I just can't imagine ever wanting to play Agent K, so I will absolutely for sure want to always know the new screen name so I can avoid it without question.

PS - I've never been one to embrace change, so my first / knee-jerk reaction is always to keep things how they are, but when given time to think things over a bit, my opinions often shift, at least a little bit, though sometimes to a more extreme view! Don't know if that will happen in this case, but, again, whatever the mods decide works for me, I just hope they provide a very clear and easy way to avoid playing a previously banned player, for those that don't want to play previously banned players, if they choose to give previously banned players a second chance.

@ The Czech: As far as the "it is only a game" philosophy, that's the exact approach that lead Banned Agent K to cheat. His response when I asked him about cheating was something like, "my college friend and I just wanted to have a little fun on the weekend," (or something like that) and cheating on webDip was fun for him, but just because "it is only a game" doesn't make it right to have fun at other people's expense...

Draugnar, you know a lot of people make that argument, and you might actually have the technical skills to sneak a second account for a while, but most people do not. But all it takes is 1 mistake and the person will be flagged and caught. I'm positive that should Agent K start cheating again I or another mod would catch it before a single game was finished and if I'm wrong about that then I'll have the games cancelled.

I have been frequently vocal about banning cheats, and I do thinks those that cheat and violate rules should be punished; I am a "law and order" type of guy and believe in punishment (myself included, when necessary) - because I believe that people learn from punishment.

I - and I hope everyone of age - can relate to being in college with a group of friends and getting caught up in stupid behavior and just running with it. Hell, I did a lot of things in college that I'd never do today. One of his things was cheating in a game on the internet...hardly a crime to him at the time, all things considered. That being said, to this community it was a crime, and he was caught, and he was punished.

In our legal system we punish for a period of time...and if someone screws up again, we punish them some more. They do their time, they do their probation/parole, until they demonstrate to the probation or parole officer that they can live straight and demonstrate repentance.

This, to me, has every sign of one who has gone through the necessary steps of demonstrating repentance. He's gone straight, come clean, etc...so this law and order guy says, and believes, that even rotten criminals can become productive, positive members of the community again.

I wholeheartedly support a reinstatement.

@Draug - he could do all these things...hell, he could have done these things already if he wanted to, could he not? But instead, he choose to try to reenter the community openly and with consent. As a church going guy, don't you believe in repentance and forgiveness at the appropriate time? This isn't Sandgoose who has been a constant menace around here recently? I'd urge you to reconsider your thoughts, from the standpoint of compassion and forgiveness from someone who appears to have matured and wants to set things straight, and presumably could once again be a positive asset to this community...unless he's just another raving loon lib, in which case I'll have to rethink my whole forgiveness schtick...lol

Doesn't matter if the game was finished or not. If he ruins it and it gets cancelled, he has destroyed the fun factor in a game for anywhere from 3 to 15 other people (assuming he and his multi or fiend were two of the 5 to 17 players in the three scenarios).

If "ruining the fun factor" is an issue, then I'd much rather ban all the douche bags that CD.

@krellin - He had his second chance once already. This is a third chance. I believe in second chances, but not third when it comes to this kind of thing. On the forums, unlimited chances, but in game destroying the fun for others by cheating, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Or, first time is happenstance and second time coincidence and in the rules of Leroy Jethro Gibbs "There is no such thing as coincidence".

@Draugnar - what about 10 years from now? If you are still around then, and he comes back after going straight and clean for 10 years, would you agree then/

"If "ruining the fun factor" is an issue, then I'd much rather ban all the douche bags that CD"
I'll +1 that, good point

Draugnar, you don't have room to talk about "destroying the fun factor." Do you remember /intentionally/ ruining the pacifist variant? Recently, you threw your nation to me and FA in The World Is Not Enough (thanks for that, by the way), ruining the game for Ghana (Mapu), or so he said. "Destroying the fun factor" comes in many shapes and sizes. The difference between your actions in these two games and those of Agent K in his games is that you don't get banned for your fun-destruction.

I'll happily play with you again in a standard press, non-anon game as the Admin Smackdown was a lot of fun with you, but you've ruined other players' fun too. We all have. Don't lose sight of that.

I say yes, with a few questions. Do the mods REALLY want to open this can of worms? If so, then god bless you. Are the tools that catch cheaters that much better now then they were a few years ago? Can he keep the name that Mad Marx gave him (Previously Banned Agent K)? And now the biggie. What exactly does he mean when he says

"I did check out the site and noticed that the mods swept through the system and banned almost all of our random accounts we had ever created."

The "almost" scares the crap out of me. But in the mods I trust.

Ask me in 10 years, krellin. The number of times he told people "It's just a game" tells me that one year is most definitely not enough. He committed the worst crime possible on the site and was flippant about it when his second incarnation was asked about his first incarnation all the while committing the crime again. It doesn't get much worse than that. Arguably, SandGoose wasn't as bad as Agent K and I only support giving SG access to the forums (return with no points).

I might agree to him coming back to the forums for a year and then getting points if, after a year of probation and monitoring, he hasn't created another account or been caught using one of the not yet discovered accounts to play a game.

dubmdell - in fairness, Draug violated no sites rules in the scenario you describe. Not a fair comparison. I get your point...but damn, if everyone start finger pointing "Well so-and-so once did such-and-such" this is gonna get real ugly real quick...

I have never knowingly violated a site rule, much less doing it twice and *after* I was banned and allowed back. I didn't throw the world game to anyone. I was trying a little chainsaw diplomacy and it didn't work.

The pacifist variant was a fucked up variant that hasn't happened since for good reason.

krellin, with the pacifist variant, he actually did. Rule 9, based on the first Responsibility.

"Use common sense and respect other players."

"9. Follow common sense
The rules above are mainly ones which might not be obvious; just because a specific rule isn't given here doesn't mean moderators can't stop people ruining the server for others!"

There was a big to-do on the forum that resulted in his being docked massive points.

And yeah, I was trying to make a point, not a real suggestion with "finger pointing"....

"I have never knowingly violated a site rule, much less doing it twice and *after* I was banned and allowed back."

Well, to be fair, you did make multiple accounts to bypass a Silence.

Draug - disappointing :-(

No, I did not. I made the ghost accounts to explain why I had my Draugnar account voluntarily banned. Big difference.

Draugnar,

You were silenced for making a cheating accusation. You made a 2nd account to bypass the silence and when that account was banned, you made a 3rd account. Why would you bother with such a blatant lie?

As far as the pacifist variant. There were rules to the variant to handle violations. Those rules about the punishment were unclear (never actually specified beyond violators will be prosecuted). But the variant was an honor agreement.

Bullshit, abge. You are very mistaken.

I'm a new member to this site. I bought the board game when I was a teenager but could never find more than 2 other geeks at my school with an interest in it. In my "old" age I have a chance to play it here properly for the first time and I'm thankful for that.

I have enjoyed most of the games I've played in but I can't begin to tell you how disheartened I feel about this site when, in other games, and it "feels" like quite a few, multi/meta cheats have ruined the experience. As a new player, it takes me a lot of time and effort, and I've considered quitting several times already - maybe I would feel different if I was a seasoned veteran?

I do feel sorry for the guy if he is truly repentant, but this could yet be another scam and also open the gates for other scammers to return - I wonder how effectively it can be policed though I know I should trust the Moderators (it's their time and effort after all is said and done).

Admittedly, the topography of the behaviour is different, but I am reminded of this research - "Clinicians should rely more on past history of a behavior than individuals’ forecasts of future behavior in predicting" J Clin Psychol 64:1--11, 2008.

I vote "No" but am willing to accept the risk and stay on the site if the outcome is "Yes"

Draug,

Do you really want to go down this road, or would you just like to admit that you have not always followed the rules?

dubmdell - I'm not going to argue with you about if Draug broke a rule in a "variant". Your variant is not an official, coded game that he somehow cheated in. I played in an "ee cumnmings" in which we were all supposed to speak in poetic verse only...technically, when someone did not, they "broke the rules"? Bahhh...that's nonsense.

But as I really know nothing about the variant to which you refer, I will not comment and further than to say that he may have been a bit of a turd and broke from the "required" poetic speech of the game...but this is hardly a violation of site rules. Honestly...a "pacifist" game sounds a bit retarded....it would go something like this, if were a true pacificst game: Spring 1901: Everyone Draws, game over. BORING. anything else is not truly a pacifist...but that's for another discussion.

If this then somehow resorted in to a forum fight in which Draug did something...well, apparently that was dealt with, but it was not cheating, it was a matter of him violating a site rule on forum posts --- huge difference, and something for which a great many around here could be accused...in which group I will include you, if you want to get prickly about it...heh heh.

I may be incorrect after all. My apologies abge. It looks like I did create the multi, but it was an attempt to force you to ban me.