Crazy, I fought for my country, served honorably, and have no desire to give up my rights because some Animal decided to kill people.

DC, Chicago, Philly, all have huge gun death problems, but have lots of legislation preventing gun ownership. So you are not showing me anything to prove to me thelegislation is working.

"I think that "somebody else behaves badly therefore Stressedlines has to give up one of his rights" is a pretty bad reason for taking his freedoms."

I'm not asking StressedLines to give up his right to bear arms...

Just for more regulation!

How is this unreasonable?

It's not as if I'm asking his guns be ripped from him, just that maybe, just maybe, more regulation a la Europe and Japan can help with the shooting death problem in the US.



Got to go take a driving test, so sorry, be back later, guys.

@Stressedlines

"Ghostmaker, I am not sure how the national numbers work, btu when castle Doctrine was extended to the car here in Tennessee, car jackings dropped over 70% within a month.

I also know when gun laws were putin place in DC, that crime went up a lot, and I can research the % for you, but, home invasions ESPECIALLY were bad. "

It is true that at the time of the law these happen, they have a marked effect initially, but it also seems that in the medium term we return to normal.

@obi

I can think of lots of cultural factors that would tend to makes us more violent than other areas. For example, we haven't experienced the ravages of large-scale violence in America (the Twin Towers, as horrifying as they were, accounted for about a long weekend's worth of drunk driving fatalities) in a century and a half, a record almost unique on the planet. Our lack of familiarity with such violence directed against us may afford a certain cultural indifference to the effects of violence. We experience more proportional economic disenfranchisement than any other plausibly first world country. We have more recently gained large benefits from ethnic cleansing than just about any other society on the planet. I'm sure there's a bunch I'm missing, but I don't think we can just casually assume that we are not, in fact, a more violent culture than many others with a plausible claim towards first world status.

In another nation, one like England with far tighter regulation laws, can you tell me he casually walks across the parking lot to the entrance with two guns and a tear gas canister...that he is able to obtain all this...


"- Aug. 19, 1987: Michael Ryan, 27, kills 16 people in small market town of Hungerford, England, and then shoots himself dead after being cornered by police."

Yes.

those cities are still far above the national average though Ghostmaker. Sure, they hada big spike, but for here, The gun deaths are restricted mostly to the ghetto areas.

And no gun laws are going to stop them from getting them (see Chicago)

How much of that gun violence is due to the misguided war on drugs, and the attendant gang activity?

How much of the discrepancy between (for example) Switzerland and the US is because of the different ethnic makeup of our countries?

Regulation as in Europe and Japan can't happen here. You need to change the constitution if you want the kind of regulation where a goddamn med student or whatever this monster was is unable to buy a gun. And basically all gun crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns anyhow, so making the process more difficult for the people who get guns legitimately will do nothing to lower the amount of violence you're getting all upset about. The little girls in Chicago who were shot while selling candy a week or so ago probably weren't killed with a gun from a legitimate dealer.

@ StressedLines

"Crazy, I fought for my country, served honorably, and have no desire to give up my rights because some Animal decided to kill people. "


and I fully support your rights.

@obiwan

You can't look at (say) the UK and US, say that the UK has lower homicide rates, therefore it is because of gun laws.

There are massive differences between the countries, and zero evidence to show that its to do with gun law rather than:
- Drug laws
- Policing
- The Justice system
- The Prison system
- Attitudes (e.g. racial)
- Education

I could go on.

and thanks for your service.

Driving test? Aren't you a college student, obiwanobiwan?

Dip, much of our gun violence is gang related. Our police are so badly out numbered, it is really sad thing to watch.

You know, where I live, during Dove/quail season, or duck season, I see kids 10-14 years old, walking down county roads with shot guns over their shoulder.

I have zero fear of those kids doing somethign stupid, because, they wre born into a culture of responsbile gun ownership.

These kids dont need regulated, but I will not disagree, these things make you scratch your head.

@TGM

not to mention surrounded by an water.

@crazy anglican:

That's one...we have a columbine or colles (a few) campus shooting or other such incidents yearly...

To all those who say this is just an isolated sicko:

Again, #1 by far in homicides and with these incidents far more regular an occurance here--

How many "isolated sickos" does it take before we can call it a pattern?

How many need die before we can call it a pattern and join the rest of the first world and at least give more regulation a *try?*

@Stressedlines

I understand your arguments, but before I take a side in this, you need to present me with a study that shows me evidence the effect of having/removing gun laws over a period of more than just a year or two, and not anecdotally, but with statistical significance. Do that and I will agree with you.

The same challenge goes to the opposite point of view.

@stessedlines:

Call it cultural bias if you will--Letting a 10 year old walk around with a gun or even hold a gun does *not* strike me as "responsible" in *any* meaning of the world.

*word

So you're just going to ignore the fact that regulation to the extent you want would be unconstitutional? Standard obiwanobiwan: I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT SHAKESPEARE I'M RIGHT!!!

Obi, it is cultural bias. I was hunting alone when I was 8. I only had a 22, but I and my brother both hunted alone, because, well, poor Apppalachian folk generally need to hunt to put meat on the table. That is just the world we lived in. Guns were not toys, they were tools. Just like a shovel or a hoe for a garden, they helped produce food.

Maybe the mindset of a 8 year old who has been shooting every day since the age of 5 (of course supervised then) they understand a gun, and what it s.

Invictus, I dont think he really cares about the Constitution one single bit to be honest...lol

If he did, he would not be here talking about this, since these rights should not be infringed upon.

Stressed grew up in District 12!

It is BS that the US has a higher murder rate than the rest of the world combined. Our Rate per capita is dwarfed by nations of Central and South America. The murder rate in Honduras is 40 (!) times that in the US. South Africa is another worse case. Please, don't use liberal talking points without checking your facts first.

Obui wants the constitution torn up. If you guys haven't figured it out, Obi is a nanny state fan and would rather have a repressive government that the freedom to move across state lines without an ID and the option togo to any doctor he wants or to say anything he wants about the people in power. It's still a crime to speak against the crown in England, after all. We are the nation with the mostf reedoms in the world and with those freedoms come the ability for whack jobs to have their freedoms to. Sorry, Obi, but this greeat nation isn't going to take away my freedoms just because you want a nanny state. Go live in Canada or Europe.

Oh, and a quick note, if all those nanny states are so fucking great, how come *we* are where all their citizens want to escape too?

hanged man, probably...lol I know what youa re talking about there. I grew up on The kentucky/Virginia border

At this sad time when many people are mourning the loss of loved ones either killed or injured by this latest mindless atrocity isn't it also a time for serious reflection on the idiotic gun-culture', that's an oxymoron if ever I heard one.
The right to bear arms ...... bullshit.
The right to eat shit, wtf is that shit all about.
Why is being able to shoot and kill stuff a constitutional right. Grow up imbeciles.
This is a time for change and this is a time to start being led by educated people, not gun-toting testosterone filled fuckwits that have dominated US politics for so long.
The times they are a changin'...... change or die, literally.
Maybe you don't think U.S. citizens deserve better ..... I disagree.
Please don't respond to this if you're a gun-toting fuckwit as I don't argue with idiots.
GROW UP AMERICA

Obi criticizes Iron Age civilizations for not being feminist. I think he gives new meaning to cultural bias.

Still as to the claim that we are the most violent 1st World country (whatever that even means anymore- I think it may have been a way to compare us with western Europe on this issue). Regardless here are some statistics about violence and homicides

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4257966.stm


We’re about on a par with Estonia as far as murders go. Russia has far more murders.

the constitution has been changed before

@ obi

I must disagree w/ your statement that "society spawned this person". It's true that he didn't come out of a void, but if it was due to society at large, then statistics should not be demonstrating fewer murders overall, including by guns, over the last decade in the US; it should be trending higher. Also, in looking at data from 2002 - 2009, there were more suicides by gunfire than there were homicides.

Personally, I think what allows this to be sensationalized is that it didn't take place in a poor, socioeconomically struggling urban area AND that it involved a higher body count than just a typical homicide.

I don't own a gun, admittedly I don't intend to - and my father was a Cleveland Policeman, so we did not grow up strangers to firearms. I just get annoyed by both extremes; those that try to claim the 2nd ammendment means ownership w/ NO restrictions and regulations (i.e. I don't think automatic weapons should be permitted) and those that use anecdotal evidence in an effort to severely restrict gun ownership.

Regardless, my deepest condolences go to those that are directly dealing w/ this event and think that any talk of punishment/consequence/"what do we do" focus strictly on the individual that caused it. Anything outside of that would seem to absolve him of his personal responsibility.