PUTIN, I am really shocked by this pro jew stand. Where is it coming from?

We should argue about the Kurds? Anyone else know about them?

"Please, tell me, what you expected the millions of Jewish refugees, which were a serious problem after the war, to do? Go back to their 'homes' where they were immediately attacked, as in Poland? Go back to the very places which implemented pogroms against them and collaborated with their executioners? What exactly is your solution?"

I don't know but pushing other people off their land isn't the way to go about it.

"No kidding, then why don't they overthrow it? They already have the numbers. Why not make Jordan the Palestinian homeland? "

Because it's not.

"The population is majority Palestinian and it was part of the Mandate of Palestine."

Might as well reintegrate Pakistan, Bangladesh and Burma into India.

The PLO doesn't speak for everyone and are not the authority on the subject. Just because they say some stupid shit does not mean that what they say is correct or should be accepted.

Whatever you say or do, you will never get to a consensus where one should accept the other, we leave in a society run by interests disguised by power and fuelled by money. Happened that the so called "Jews" have the skill to create, maintain and grown money, so, pretty much where the interest is, you will need a "Jew" or at least you will have one around. The longest wars and the biggest ones were centred in Jews, The second world war, Hitler just found a perfect excuse to get rid of what he saw as a threat for Germany's sovereignty, and at the same time stole the goods. And we can go on and on. The point that I want to make is, that for sure, there will be in both sides "whatever they are" competent people willing to progress and make the Society better, that my friends can only be achieved looking at similarities and not differences. Although we are leaving on a modern era, we still go along with the most tribal way of identification, The country flags. Do you want better way to be different, hehehe, this shows how far are we to commit with a healthy society centred in human rights and respect. Progressing towards to preserve our Race instead of destroying it.

"It speaks volumes of Tolstoy's real attitude when he demands that the whole of the Jewish population of the world be confined to a single already densely populated and extraordinarly multicultural city. Maybe the Slovaks, which are fewer in number than Jews, can be confined to Chicago. They don't need a country. "

All it shows is that, as we know, he is a viscous anti-semite. He hides this as pro-palestinian but his constant resort to stereotyping shows that he just simply hates Jews. Is there validity to the pro Palestinian side, yes. Can you argue the pro palestinian side without being an anti semite? Sure, look at everybody else on here. Is there validity in portraying Jews as caricatures as Tolstoy always does? No way. Same old Tolstoy. Anti Semite.

Arabs did not respect the partition, they started a war, they lost a war. The arabs expelled Jews from Arab territory before the cease fire, Jews expelled Palestinians from Jewish held territory before the cease fire. It was never a one way street and it was a hallmark of wars of the time. You can say all you want about 67 and the aftermath, but the 1948 war was a battle for survival, one that both sides committed atrocities and engaged in ethnic cleansing. It just so happens the Israelis won.

the ignorance is so great.
again you are talking about jews and palestinians,opinions and racism,lies,twisting history for your own stupid ego growth,thinking you will look much more smarter or important,etc.
the truth (sorry) is that palestinians and jews are just dummies in a much greater conflict,and if it wasnt for having a non arab nation in the region,no one really cares about jews or palestinians.the proximity of suez canal is what makes israel so important,and everytime there is a crisis in the region,oil prices change and its enougth reason for some son's of bitches not to care a damn about human lifes.
great nations spend millions on midle east terrorism just to make profit of the stokmarket changes.
and i am tired of "hitler" wanting to cleanse the inferior races,he was just another stupid asshole drunk of power ,who found a simple and fast way to get millions of workers for the weapon production,and didnt have to pay them or feed them,using darwinism to persuade the masses of ignorant germans .

Fully agree with you taos, but let me tell you the level of irritation on your speach, will decrease the levels of audience instead of increasing it.

All this talk of Jew-hating, I think the Jews have the worst PR going and all because they have a proper word for descrbing people who they decide hate them.... get over yourselves !!
The debate surely is concerning the neo-fascist govt of Israel and their appalling treatment of the Palestinian people, backed by US politicians and weapons, with European sympathisers.. If you keep religion out of it the debate is a bit cleaner and straight-forward, Israel, start treating the Palestinian people like human beings, we can't we-write the past, it's too late but we can change the future. Grow up Israel !!

The growth of the Israeli Neo-Fascists
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/veteran-israeli-activist-warns-against-neo-fascist-legislation-1.400513

To be anti-Israeli is not the same as being anti-Jewish. I know several jewish people here in the UK who are horrified by the behaviour of the state of Israel, and want no association with it. Supporting the Palestinian cause does not make someone an anti-semite.

Re: anti-Zionist equalling antisemitism.
Obviously that's not always the case. There are many many reasons to be disgusted with Israel and it has not to do with hating hook nosed money grabbers. However, especially in the past 40 or so years, anti-Zionism is often used as a more politically acceptable sounding board for blatant antisemitism.
So, in some cases, it's not outlandish to accuse anti-zionists of being bigots. It's just often an overused defense by Israeli apologists.

Re: the conflict.
Not sure why everyone talks in binary about it. Can't the actions of both sides be pretty damning? Palestinian terrorist tactics and uncompromising rhetoric about not recognizing Israel's existence diserve their fair share of criticism. Similarly, as has been said already, Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and continued expansionis policy is sickening.
However, there are bright spots on both sides too. Despite the neo-facist label, Israel certainly has progressive social policies compared to its neighbors. There are grassroots peace movements on both sides of the border. Etc. etc.

So, yeah, it's fucked up.

IMHO, a much more interesting debate is how to progress towards a peaceful solution. And I'll be damned if I can think of a reasonable answer.

NATO can and will offer Israel all the defence they need against the Arab world.
Whilst the West condemns the behaviour of the 'backward' non-democratic countries and their human rights abuses they pay lip service to Israeli land re-settlement policies. The rights of the normal people in Palestine have been violated for many years now it's not funny, it's an offense to common decency, civil rights and the rule of law.
I hope one day Israeli citizens stand up and say, "enough is enough, we don't want this anymore, we deserve better, these are our neighbours and they deserve to be treated as our equals". That is my hope, an Israeli Spring.....

Santa writes: ''Maybe the Slovaks, which are fewer in number than Jews, can be confined to Chicago. They don't need a country. "

This remark and the attitude it betrays actually lie at the root of the problem. After the appalling tragedy of the Holocaust the Jews were taken up with a solution very much along the lines of the nationalist movements. These movements became very significant only really in the19th century. Indeed, prior to WW2, Zionism was far from universally accepted by the Jewish people, because there was a strong internationalist, rather than nationalist, mindset particularly in central and eastern Europe. In my view this latter view was the majority opinion, while Zionism was espoused by a minority amongst the Jews.

Post-holocaust the Jews took up the nationalism exemplified by Cavour and Garibaldi (etc.) in the Risorgimento and Bismarck and the Kaiser (etc.) in Germany. That was when Zionism really took root as a majority view amongst the Jews. I don't know about you, but I got the firm and not to be questioned message from the History I was taught in school what basically good, albeit calculating, guys these ‘’patriots’’ were. As time goes by I see that the world might well have been a better place had the Hapsburgs and Ottomans survived WW1, it certainly couldn’t have been much worse. Funny isn't it the agenda we were/are given as children/adults? The wisest man I knew once asked me why anyone should shoot another man because he was born on the other side of an, often arbitrary, line drawn on a map. It remains a very good and, in my view, unanswerable question.

But, I digress, after WW2 the surviving Jews for understandable, but in my view mistaken reasons, bought into that same nation state paradigm that we have all been to accept unconditionally. In effect this particular agenda has been set more by the Wannsee conference than the Balfour declaration. That is why we are at this point today, with the continuing and gathering conflict. IMO, given where we are, the only real solution is the establishment of a single state heeding, and hopefully going some way to fulfilling, the words of Isaiah:
''And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.''

Maybe I am an incurable romantic?

"The debate surely is concerning the neo-fascist govt of Israel and their appalling treatment of the Palestinian people"

Just curious, why is there never any outrage about how Muslim governments treat their minority populations? Why aren't they called 'neo-fascist'? As soon as 'democracy' is brought to the Arab world, the first thing that is done is to go after religious and ethnic minorities. Witness what happened to the Christians in Iraq, the black Africans in Libya, and now the Coptic Christians in Egypt. But the only outrage the west has is for Israel, naturally.

Israel treats its Arab minority far far better than any other government in the region, and it is constantly under siege.

"As time goes by I see that the world might well have been a better place had the Hapsburgs and Ottomans survived WW1, it certainly couldn’t have been much worse."

Right, who needs those pesky Armenians or Serbs. Better that the genocidaires survive.

"I don't know but pushing other people off their land isn't the way to go about it."

Right, so you have no solution but we're expected to cry crocodile tears over a small population of people who made Mufti Haj Husseini their leader and recruited Waffen SS divisions, instead of support a people's right to statehood who have long been treated like garbage by Europe.

"The PLO doesn't speak for everyone and are not the authority on the subject. Just because they say some stupid shit does not mean that what they say is correct or should be accepted."

Yes they do speak for the Palestinian people. They're the elected leadership. They have long been the leading national voice for Palestinians. So if they claim they don't exist as a people, then maybe this notion that Palestinian nationalism has existed since time immemorial is just pure opportunism since they know they won't get the whole of the Mandate, like they initially wanted.

"Maybe I am an incurable romantic?"

Or maybe you just have no idea what you're talking about. A federal solution was proposed in the 1930s and 40s. The Arab population couldn't countenance any Jews living in that area.

People act as if though there was no Jewish population in the holy land prior to Zionism. That is nonsense. There had long been the Old Yishuv, which was mercilessly oppressed by their Arab and Turkish overlords. The idea that Jews would be safe under Arab dhimmitude is just wishful thinking by people who are willing to force Jews to give up their right to self defense, but wouldn't dare propose the same thing for themselves.

Why were the Palestinians ever forced to get rid of their land to house the Jews in the first place? What justification is there for pushing the burden onto Palestine? Creating a state to house displaced Jews as a result of the Holocaust is of course justifiable, but why should the Palestinians have been displaced instead of the Germans?

They weren't forced. The land was owned by absentee landlords, from whom it was purchased. It wasn't 'Palestinian' land, it was Ottoman territory taken in the course of war. Land is exchanged after war all the time.

"but why should the Palestinians have been displaced instead of the Germans?"

The Germans were already displaced by the Czechs and Poles after the war. Huge numbers of them. They lost the war. Nobody weeps for them. Why the same thing doesn't apply in this case is beyond me. And I repeat, the Palestinian leadership during WWII were active collaborators with Germany in the worst way, so why aren't they a guilty party along with Germany?

PE, I think you're exaggerating the displacement narrative from 1948.
The borders that were proposed and accepted by the Jews included a significant Arab state (Palestinian, I suppose). Furthermore, Palestinians were free to live in the new Israeli state.

Also, people make a big deal about the Jews getting 55% of the 20% of the Mandate that was West of the Jordan River, but they don't bother to mention that 1-60% of that land is the Negev desert, and 2-they also had to incorporate 400,000 Arabs, whereas only 10,000 Jews were allowed to live in the proposed Arab state.

The amount of land in Israel which came from Arabs who left the area before during & after the war was only 18% of all of Israel. Considered in the broad spectrum of so-called displacements, that is negligible. Most of the land that became Israel was owned by the Mandate.

i get annoyed with the failure of the Arab tribes to live in Peace.
They are all alleged sons of Abraham, and the Hassidic Arabs (Jews ) and the other Arabic tribes are such a perpetually squabbling bunch,that the desire to give them all a free clip behind the ear is my reaction.

What an odd thing to say from a member of the European 'tribes'. Considering European squabbles usually involved millions dead and the whole world engulfed in flames.

errrr, Uncle Ian was flying the Beaufighter he was in against the japanese, the orientals joined the Europeans in WW2 with an invitational fireworks display at Pearl Harbor.

the point i was making was that this debate is always framed as Jews v Arabs, with Jews being "not arabs", but the jews are just the "Hassidic Arabs" & that's a concept that scares both Jews and other Arabs.

They all invoke their Gods & religions in their silly squabbles ( they are not alone there, but does it make it any less illogical ? )

Any Omnipotent God that deals in time on the old eternal scale might well see them ( and us ) as a pathetic squablling bunch who occassionally produce something beautiful, but so often produce something tragic.

"but the jews are just the "Hassidic Arabs" & that's a concept that scares both Jews and other Arabs."

"the point i was making was that this debate is always framed as Jews v Arabs, with Jews being "not arabs", but the jews are just the "Hassidic Arabs" & that's a concept that scares both Jews and other Arabs."

You act like the genetic similarity is something either relevant or revealing. Last I checked the British Empire conquered 1/4 the world because of some petty competition with people that were genetically identical. The British and German Empires had problem using poison gas against each other when even their royals were cousins. But nobody is claiming that all British and German people need to be clipped behind the ear because they're too savage and backward to not fight.

i don't understand your point Putin
mine is that people who promote violence to pursue political agendas are the problem
the squabbling arabs hurt their own people as well as others.
The "shared" history of the Hassidic Arabs (jews) and other Arabs ( mainly muslim )
is that the all originate with Abraham, that's their own shared cultural history.

"ours" if you like is from Roman empire on, engaging in crusades and causing more bloodshed and misery, so we share in a responsibility for the mess as well, the superpowers have all used the middle east for their own needs.

Most of the Jews that were immigrating to Israel in the first half of the century were ashkenazi Jews from Europe. They had been living in Europe for roughly *1000* years. They shared a much greater cultural connection to Europeans than to Arabs.
Saying Ashkenazi Jews and Arabs are similar because of a shared connection to some (fictional?) individual thousands of years ago is pretty disingenuous.
Just my two cents. But I don't see how that relates to anything anyways.