Great another anti-religious hate spew. I almost think it is funny how you say we spew hate when you spew far worse things.

Hey nobody is hating anything! None of us hate religion, we just wish y'all would keep to your own flock and not mess with ours, ya know?

@Celtic,

First of all, you're wrong about homosexuality being wrong being only from Leviticus. That's an _extremely_ common myth, but in fact the New Testament also calls it wrong several times.

As for the rest -- I don't support blue laws (they're crazy) nor sodomy laws. I'm fairly libertarian I suppose. I think I'd start answering this question with abortion, since that might be the easiest context.

For partially / largely religious reasons, I view abortion as murder. But I believe my religion is true -- so I actually think abortion is murder. How can I NOT oppose that? Anybody else who thinks murder should be illegal is also imposing his views of morality. My views just happen to be based on religious reasons.

Now, as for gay marriage, it's a little unusual -- we're not just allowing a behavior, but we're asking the government to positively recognize and support it. Since I believe the behavior is wrong, I naturally enough think this is a bad idea (while not thinking the behavior should be illegal -- by and large I don't view it as the government's job to ban things just because they may be wrong).

@Gunfighter While it may be Majority rule, there are still minority rights which include gay rights, women's right etc. Also, if that was the only passage used I wouldn't see the hypocrisy in the arguments but they don't they use the old testament passages as well.

(Santorum scares me in part cause he wants to take away my right to even have contraceptive. Though really there's very little I agree with him on. And Romney scares me cause he'll give this country to big business even if he is the most liberal of all the republicans running atm)

I actually think it is funny how liberals think. YOU CAN'T KILL THE PRISONER IT'S MURDER. Go ahead kill the baby it doesn't have any rights yet.

And I should of clarified yes they don't only use Leviticus, but the people who have preached at me have used it and the New Testament passages.

My stance on abortion is this.. stay the fuck away from my body and I will yours. I have no right legislating another about a man's body and he has no right to legislate anything on mine. Though really even if abortion is made illegal it won't stop.

Actually before a certain point the fetus is just a leech on the mothers body. Are you going to make miscarriages illegal too. And I just love how you want to save the fetus but how about we improve the already over taxed adoption system before we make anything illegal.

It's a tough choice to make, HC. It isn't the choice I would make. But I'll defend forever my right to make that choice for myself, and for women to make that choice for herself as well. It isn't your decision.

I don't think it's right that they don't give a man the right to protest it either. If my girlfriend aborted my child against my consent. I don't know what I would do. Plus that's not just her body there is three people involved now.

There is no such thing as gay rights, women's rights, etc.... because we get our rights simply because we are human, we ALL have the same rights. Therefore, there is no room for sub-categories. I have often wondered how it is that the Declaration of Independence stated this so clearly, and yet it was executed so poorly.

@ Holy_Crusader2113

Shut up. You're undermining my reasonable argument.

@ Celticfox

"While it may be Majority rule, there are still minority rights which include gay rights, women's right etc."

Gay rights may not necessarily include gay marriage. There's constitutional wiggle room on that one. Also, abortion is not a women's rights issue in my opinion. I believe that the fetus is a human being from the moment of conception onward, and is therefore entitled to a right to life that supersede's his/her mother's right to privacy.

I only use the Bible when arguing with people over whether or not the Christian Church should recognize gay marriage, and even then I only use the New Testament. I have no personal opposition to gay marriage, but I don't think that gay marriage is constitutionally guaranteed, and I also don't think that laws that ban gay marriage are theocratic in nature.

Because sadly not everyone see that women, gays, etc are equal. They see them as second class. It's sad that even now people feel that way.

Actually, HC, I see your point on that. I feel the same way - but I still know it's wrong to feel that way. Her body: her decision. There's no way around that. I can't force a woman to carry my baby.

"I also don't think that laws that ban gay marriage are theocratic in nature."

@GF It's a cute argument, but by and large only religious people want to ban gay marriage. You can't really separate the two, can you?

I don't view women as a second class, but just because in history you were viewed this way doesn't mean anyone against abortion is anti-women's rights.

And just because you don't view women that way doesn't mean other people don't. And believe me some people still do.

@Gunfighter

There is no true reasonable arguement about these issues. I tried to state facts and ideas that had nothing to do with religion on the other forum and all I got back is that I am a hatred filled troll with crazy religious ideas.

I believe you, actually, HC. I understand your argument that all life is sacred, and that the right to life from your perspective supersedes women's rights over her own body.

I don't agree with it, but I'm able to understand it.

I just wish you and others like you would be able to recognize that others don't feel the same way, and that we are not willing to relinquish control over our own bodies. Your morality does not supersede my own.

I am able to agree with life being sacred, refusing to ever entertain the possibility of an abortion, and STILL be pro choice. Why can't you?

I should point out I am not calling you hatred filled or anything like that here. I respect your opinion but I have to disagree.

Yeah HC nobody is hating man, you really can't make that claim. We're being pretty respectful and rational here.

Because once you become pregnant it really isn't your choice anymore. You can't smoke or drink during your pregnancy. Women don't just walk around and one day go oh no I'm pregnant. You had sex. You weren't forced. You did it because you wanted to and now that you are pregnant and you realize you made a bad choice. You don't want to deal with the consquences and put the punishments all on the child. Abortion is the ability to avoid responsibility. Plus there are millions of infertile women out there that can't have kids that would love to take care of your child.

I'm not talking about this forum. I was talking about the last all it was is if you don't agree get the fuck out and that is what I was told after I talked about how I felt it is not really a religious ideal, more of a moral idea.

So women should be forced to carry the baby to term to punish them for a bad decision? You can't really believe that. Can you? That sounds like you are using a child as a means of controlling women. Do you really think that a woman who is raising a child as punishment is going to be a good mother?

Adoption agencies are overcrowded, to my understanding, so your "infertile adopters" argument doesn't hold a lot of water imo. Correct me if I'm wrong.

yeah, HC, I think you were rehashing old points on the other forum. Understandable with 15 pages or w/e.

Ppl get tired of the same old arguments :P

Hey, I am not saying it should just be the women. The man should have to support her all the way. He made a bad choice and he has to deal with the consquences too. All I have to say is this I would rather be in an orphanage than dead.

Actually there is something called rape which women do become pregnant from. You can still drink and smoke while pregnant nothing illegal about that. And yeah there are women who don't realize they're pregnant for 3-4 months due to various reasons.

Have you seen the adoption system it's a mess. There's a reason people go out of this country to adopt children and not because it's in style.

I'm big on contraception because if we can get women who don't want children to use it then abortion rates will go way down.

I disagree that abortion is the ability to avoid responsibility. There are absolutely time where I agree abortion should happen, rape, forced incest, the pregnancy will kill the mother, and if there's some horrible birth defect. But, that's just me. I still do not have the right to tell anyone else what to do with their body.

No, on the last forum it was continual. I hate religion and people that don't believe in Aethism are stupid.

I wasn't saying a girl that was raped or will die from the pregnancy. I am talking about those that just sleep around and get knocked up.

OK, so you are saying both men and women should be forced to deal with the consequences. That still doesn't answer the question of whether they will be good parents in that situation. I'm thinking absolutely not. In fact, people who have a child before they go to college are FAR more likely to live below the poverty line for the rest of their life, and even those who don't earn far less than their counterparts.

Is ANY decision so terrible that the consequences should cripple you for the rest of your life?