@goldfinger: Based on Bombadil's criticisms (2012), can you defend the conclusions of your argument? And what exactly was your methodology for the analysis? Did you factor the 3-way draw perception into your findings? Are the results reliable and even ethical?

To answer your question, Tom, he could play non-live games or even live games with a bunch of the usual, well ranked players who frequently do live games. I just want to see how he matches up in an invitational game, where nobody will be stupid enough to play WTA like its PPSC or do stupid disbands which hand the solo to someone.

And 3-way draws aren't my criteria for respect. If someone wins a lot and their wins were due to sheer diplomatic or tactical brilliance, then they get my respect. Someone who fights his way into a stalemate line to turn a 3-way into a 4-way earns my respect. Lots of things do. Winning due to a CD does not, however.

And to my critics, I did not factor in the 3-way draw perception, and as always, my results are completely reliable and ethical :)

(Much like a McDonalds funded obesity study is reliable)

This is why a good ethical survey should always be done BEFORE commencement of research.

I do think that 90% of the top 100 GR rated players who also type at least 60 WPM would have a positive expected value for their GR change in a live game, which I think is basically the core of Agent K's point. I also think that longer games are closer to "true" diplomacy, and live games are more of a variant (the game has always thrived as a postal hobby, not in person), so if we end up not having three separate categories for GR (live, gunboat, regular), it may be worth considering only giving live games half weight.

I disagree with your take, uclabb. Live games are fairly close to FtF games. Why would we give live games only half weight? Once we have integrated GR and you don't think that the overall score/ranking don't reflect the quality of the players, then only use WTA regular full press game as a way to select your opponents.

I disagree back, zultar. FtF games usually are at least 15 minute turns which is about 45 minutes in internet time. That is much closer to the amount of time someone spends (actually probably more) on a 24-36 hour phase game. What live games on the site become, in my experience (and I have been pretty successful so far), basically amount to sending compelling Spring 1901 messages, one of your neighbors responding "let's do it," and then you do it. Not much intrigue.

I wouldn't disagree with your analysis of how live games work, but how do you figure 15 min in FtF is equivalent to 45 min online?

You can speak 3x faster than type? Idk But I agree with uclabb's assessment overall as well

3x faster? I don't know about that. Some people stutter and do uhhs and umms a lot.
I really like the one time that I played a 10-min phase "live" game with my students but we were all in the same lab and played it FtF and just used webdip to make it easier to enter and resolve moves.

I don't actually know, zultar, it was just conveniently mathematically correct. But i think in general people speak faster than they type, and can get responses without having to refresh.

But you can't shift nearly as rapidly back and forth in speaking vs typing. For real, I get over 200 messages per live full press game on a regular basis when I make it to the final end result. I talk to every player repeatedly on every phase. You physically can't do that in f2f. I find my live games have *more* communication than f2f games

I personally can speak at close to 400 WPM, but I definitely wouldn't do that in diplomacy and would expect talking speeds to be closer to 100 WPM, which is not significantly faster than most typing. If you combine that with the time people spend not being able to talk to anybody, moving around, writing out orders, etc. I don't really think a 3:1 comparison is all that accurate.

I actually can speak two thousand words per minute, and I can talk to seven people at the same time.

Oh, you do debate too?

LOL, I was being facetious, but debate is close enough.

What a bunch of whiners. I don't care what "special circumstances" gave him any individual wins, nobody comes out on top that often without having the talent.

He's just like your old pal YJ. Only better. Bow down.

Body language says a lot, which is lost on WebDip making most live games less enjoyable to me. If time permitted, I might consider 30 minute phases with an agreement to finalize and no diploming on retreats and builds to be roughly the equivalent to F2F, but the body language element is still lost. I can tell when someone is lying to me in F2F instinctively. I don't have time to analyze their every word in a live game looking for a typing tell.

A typing tell?
Some thing tells me you stink at live games.

I usually don't play live games, but when I do, I suck at them.

And yes, there are typing tells. They come out strongly in standard length games, like the ones who go silent just before a stab.

Anyone who goes silent just before a stab is an idiot.

Yeah, first time I played ghug he was chatting me up so sweetly just before he stuck his vile Turkish daggers all up in my back.

Yeah, but you proceeded to beat the crap out of him towards the end.
Lesson to be learned: make sure the daggers go all the way through.

Heh I still say it was a good stab. If I hadn't convinced Semck to turn the corner immediately that would have been ugly for me.

YJ - I admitted that he had some degree of talent in order to get in position to go for the solos, I wasn't denying that. I just can't be sure if he has the talent to get the solo, since a large number of them came from the same player making mistakes (4) and CD's (4)

Like I said, all of this is rather academic. If you want to test his skills, ask him to play in an invitational with the usual spec: WTA, anon, full press, 36-48 hr phase.

fair enough, goldie. Rest assure that GR will take care of itself if he is overrated. MM had 2 solos and 5 draws recently or something and LOST rating :P

lol I wonder how much my GR would go up if I soloed in a game with MM