I worked in the trades as a young man, electrical, and I always found union electricians to be relatively lazy bums with overstaffed crews. They counted on seniority to get a raise, and they worked slow because they made their money off the hourly rate and not by the job in my experience.
I've found from relatives and friends who work in movie production that unions haven't changed at all since my day. Union contracts demand overstaffing and cause production companies to pay people to stand around with their thumbs up their asses all day long doing nothing.
Then people wonder why movie production fled the state of California. Look no further than the greedy, worthless, morons in the local unions.
Recently American corporations began moving to employment that demands everyone get fired every four to six years and reapply for their jobs. This rewards the workers with the best abilities and ambition.
Could you imagine union bums used to being rewarded on seniority and never have to worry about the quality of their work trying to get rehired? LOL! They would be unemployed in no time flat.
Non-union companies in right to work states from the safety if not better than union shops because those companies aren't wasting money that could go to safety on unneeded staff demanded by union contracts.

Anyone who claims they overlook their own self-interest and favor the common good is a bald-faced liar and I would tell it right to their face.
Altruism is a fiction that pervades the brains of morons and imbeciles.

I like the false notion that "communities" are unions. They aren't in any way shape or form. You can move in and out of communities as you see fit, sell your home, etc.
You can't do this in a union.
You can enter and leave a country of your own free will. You can't do that in a union shop.
You will rise and fall based on your own merits, but no in a union shop. They limit the jobs and based wages on seniority and not ability.

Steven Jobs was in a union when he invented the personal computer?
Albert Einstein was in a union when he came up with his scientific theories?
Bill Gates was in a union when he created windows?
Henry Ford was in a union when he invented the model T?
The list is fucking endless of what individuals unfettered by the suffocating restrictions of unions accomplished.

Unions destroy jobs- look at the number of union jobs in the entertainment business and auto industry. They decrease every single year.
Unions destroy companies-look at GM and Chrysler- both bankrupted by unions.
Union destroy key social institutions-just look at the horrendous decay of Americans schools since teachers unions took them over.
Union destroy countries-just look at the Soviet "UNION"
Effective government the world over has been rapidly destroyed by unions of government employees. Health care in Britain is horrendous because of unionized medical workers.
The insane pensions and benefits of public sector union workers are bankrupting cities, states, and whole countries.

Unions aren't communities or countries or anything but what they really are, groups of workers who can't cut it on their own in the free market place of competitive skills who have to corrupt politicians to create rules that keep unions from disappearing because they can't survive on their own.

Major Mitchell, Unions are some of the most horrendous exploiters of people on the face of the earth and have held back the progress of humanity more than any other institution since the beginning of the industrial revolution.

So go ahead and throw up a smoke screen saying that a family is a "union" which it certainly isn't, or that a community is a "union" which is certainly isn't, or that a country or any other red herring you want to throw out there.

Because of course it is evident you can't defend "Unions" because they are indefensible.

I feel sorry for you when your pension checks vanish because the "union" you were in lied through their teeth to you and spent those endless union dues you paid in all those years on older workers in the ponzi scheme.

I'll be able to laugh at your ignorance and stupidity because you have no one to blame but yourself, because you were to much of a COWARD to strike out on your own and take the risk that you had the ability to really build something for your kids to inherit, for you family to benefit from, for the workers at your company to profit from.

That's what I did Major Mitchell. I built a company that provides real jobs to people and pays real wages from a company that won't go broke because of stupid union pension ponzi schemes.
My employees have 401K plans that they can oversee, not some corrupt union official or some useless social security crumbs. My workers will enjoy a "REAL" retirement because it is "THEIR" money.
My kids will get a real inheritance that I build not some repulsive, meager handout from some union official who lined his own pocket and those of his cronies before they dispensed crumbs to the real workers just before the whole false fasade collapsed.

So sleep well at night hoping that someone somewhere in that union fantasy of yours won't break their word to you. What a miserable life that must be.

I'll sit back taking care of my own affairs and the affairs of the people I'm responsible for because I know something that your ignorant ass can't figure out, no one can take care of my responsibilities better than me. Learn that lesson you helpless turd.

So unity destroys things? Riiiight. So you really believe that the workers that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that fought for the right to unionize would have been better off had they not organized to get fair pay and good working conditions? Without unions that is where we would still be today.

Nike Flash, So unions were great? Tell that to Detroit will you.
Tell that to Pittsburgh?

Whatever your fantasies are please tell me a union industry that is flourishing today?

Unions are the poison pill in every well they've been dropped into in this country.

Public schools staffed by teaching unions since the 1970's turned to shit.
The American automobile industry dying.
The American steel industry dead.
The film industry in Hollywood, gone to film on location anywhere but Hollywood.

Please tell me about your flourishing unions industries.

The next time you get electrical work, plumbing work, or any other work done on your own home (if you are old enough or industrious enough to own a home) please let me know how satisfied you are at the "value" provided to you by the union member I know you called because you are such a believer in unions.

What total bullshit.

Unions do destroy countries. Just look at what happened to the CSA.

TC, you misrepresent what I have said.

First, I never claimed that Family, or Community were "Unions"
When I "spoke" of the Community & Family that was a direct criticism of your selfish
"I am in service only to my self interest " claim / attitude

So please display the intellectual discipline required to keep up.

Recognition that you are a part of a community can be completely independent
of any involvement with "Unions", which I assume to mean "trade Unions" and
"professional associations"

So let's clarify the definition of "Unions" for the purposes of this debate.

I would use the definition that "Unions " are the traditional trade unions and
associations that represent the various professional groups.
So for example I would include the Bar associations that represent Lawyers
and the professional associations that represent Engineers, Doctors etc.

Do you agree with that description / definition of Unions ?
or is your definition of Unions restricted to "trade" or "blue collar" unions ?

You may offer an alternative definition of "Unions".

You say you "will feel sorry for me when my "pension" checks vanish" because of
corruption within unions.
Excuse my disbelief that you would feel sorry for me,
remember your claim that you are "only in service to your own self interest"
& try and be consistent in what you say.

I doubt very much that my superannuation will vanish as a result of alleged union
corruption, I am an Australian citizen, and my superannuation is held in various
superannuation funds that are a mix of
1 an Industry based scheme that is run by a subsidiary of a major Insurance
Company, but has a "governing Board" composed of a mix of representatives
from employers, the industry unions and Independent directors,

and 2 two more Superannuation funds, one is the Superannuation fund that is a
wholly owned subsidiary of one of Australia's " big 4 " Commercial Banks, listed
on the Australian stock exchange.
the other is a Superannuation fund of another publicly listed International
Insurance company.

The "old age pension" in Australia is a Federal Government "pension",
it is "means tested" in that your private income is assessed and the level
of benefits received adjusted accordingly.
When this "old age pension" was introduced, there was an increase in
income tax rates to fund the "universal" old age pension.
In Australia, only the Federal Govt has the Constitutional power to tax citizens on
their income, and tax corporate entities. State govts have no Constitutional power
to tax incomes in Australia.

So I think it is extremely unlikely that my "pension checks" will vanish because
of your alleged union corruption.

I also have my own investments in publicly listed companies, no huge amount,
but amongst the mail at my Post Office Box that I collected today was a nice letter
from Argo Investments telling me I can look forward to a half year dividend of 13 cents
per share in the next few weeks, about $ Aus 114.00 which at the current exchange
rate would be about $ US 122.00.

I do own my humble shack by the sea outright, I worked for NCR Aust
( a subsidiary of the old National Cash Registers of the USA ) for a number of
years, but a few years after the takeover of NCR by AT&T when the asset stripping
and downsizing was in full swing, although it was given a more sanitised name
of "right sizing " by the corporate chiefs, I chose to "vote with my feet" and accepted
a "redundancy" package and payout
( I accepted that having paid several billion dollars to aquire NCR,
that AT&T had the right to run NCR into the ground in whatever way AT&T saw fit,
but I had the right to say "I do not wish to be associated with this" and leave )

I nearly purchased a super duper PA and lighting rig and was going to work with
Rock & Roll bands etc for the "fringe benefits of drugs and easy women"
( & for our ardent feminists that was a flippant "tongue in cheek remark",
and PLEASE NOTE I make NO CLAIM to be a feminist )

Instead I purchased my humble shack in a quiet village between two little rivers
by the sea, using the payout from NCR and some private savings for a lazy $70k.
in 1995
Thanks to the rush of "Baby Boomers" to this and other coastal places,
property prices skyrocket'd, which I had expected, and I would conservatively
put a price of $Aus 300k to $Aus 350k on the block of land,
I have a friend in real estate who reckons I should be thinking $ 400k to $450k
minimum
( that's $US 428k to $US 481k for George's minimum price estimates )

I do not usually blab on about my money / investments, they are puny compared to
those of my two much smarter than me sisters, one is a highly regarded Corporate
Lawyer married to another Corporate Lawyer, they would be multi millionaires,
and the younger sister, "bats for the other team" & lives with her partner in Sydney
she has, amongst her University degrees a Masters degree in Economics,
bit of sibling rivalry with her older sister behind her accumulation of University degrees.

My point in detailing my investments is to clearly demonstrate to you,
dear cork brain'd clown, is that I do not fit your stupid stereotype accusation
to the effect that I am a coward and unable to aquire any wealth from my own efforts.

I have run my own business, Gyprock fixing & flushing and Ceiling fixing, where
I employed several people, and paid above award rates,
but I expected a damn good days work for the generous pay,
Biggest problem experienced in that caper, not Unions, but slow and non paying
clientele, including some wealthy business people.
( I could tell you about the shenanigans of multi millionaire slum property landlords,
but there is little doubt that you wouldn't listen, because it contradicts your stupid
narrow minded, ideologically driven propoganda )

Another "businesss" I got into was owning and operating Amusement machines,
such as Bally Williams brand pinball machines ( don't buy Gottliebs or the other
makes as the original companies that made them have long gone and spare parts
are a hassle ) and Daytona driving games etc.

That operated on a "split commision" basis, eg you site a pinball machine on
someones site and split the takings, 30% to 35 % to the site owner
and 70% to 65 % to me, the machine owner.
It's a fairly straight forward example of the private entreprenurial capitalist,
but I offer no apology for f****ing up your convoluted "logic" by being successful
at the caper.
I still own a couple of pinball machines, two Fish Tales ( one is for parts )
a Getaway and a Theatre of Magic.
the big advantage I had in operating Amusement machines was that I have the
electronic and mechanical skills and equipment to do my own service and repairs,
which kept those costs to a minimum & keeping costs down helps the old "bottom line"

I also have my car and motorcycle collection, nothing compared to the collection
owned by Jay Leno, the US TV show host,
the only specific details I will reveal about that collection is I have one "panel van"
from the 1960's that I purchased in early 1980's for $Aus 400-, it owes me about
another $1600- for parts etc and I put in hundreds of hours of my time,
as an 80 % ready to go vehicle I can sell it for about $Aus 14k,
finished and on the road with registration $20k plus

I also have a 1974 Mercedes Benz V8, a Suzuki Katana 1100cc motorbike,
a Laverda motorcycle, road bike about a 1000cc ( that's an Italian make )
and 3 other vehicles,
and when my nephew inherits the collection, he will be one happy lad.

Then there is my Library, at least 5,000 books, as we are taking the capitalist
approach, I think the 1st Edition copy of John Lennon's " A Spaniard in the Works"
in mint condition, that I found in an Op shop 20 years ago, and got for 50 cents
would perhaps show a decent "capital gain" if I sold it.

I am definitely a "magpie" and collect all sorts of stuff

You mention'd building work on my house, I spent a couple of hours today "playing"
with my scaffolding, rather than hire scaffolding, because I am so slow at making
progress ( I am still working on a shed "complex" that will give me about 120 squ
metres of floorspace for cars & motorbikes start'd in 1996 and still going )
I purchase my own scaffolding and spent a lazy $ Aus 1800- on more clamps in
December 2011. The roof of my shack, its a 2 storey building, is about 40 feet
plus above ground, so I am not hanging off my big extension ladder to, one day,
attend to some decaying timberwork, I am building up scaffold to do it.

I am co ordinating with a close mate who has had a V8 motor vehicle hidden
from his wife at my place for 3 years and who will be coming to collect it next week
so he can quietly sell it, ( at a profit, not sorry to annoy you with that little point )
and as he has to use a car trailer, I have today order'd ten 6.5 metre lengths
of 40mm nominal bore galvanised steel pipe with a 3.2 mm wall thickness
at approx $Aus 43- per length from the outlet of a major steel maker in Adelaide
that sells at the "best" price I can find, and I save up to $40 per length on "retail"
prices by going direct to the manufacturer's outlet.
I will drive up and we will use the empty car trailer to transport the pipe to my shack,
unload it here, and then load the car to go back to Adelaide, so I am not stuck with
a freight bill.
That $ 430- of pipe will bring my "investment" in scaffolding past the $Aus 8k mark

Why is the scaffold relevant ? when I finish using it in another 10 years or so,
assuming I am still here, with a pulse, I can lease it out through a local Building
Equipment Hire business run by a friend, and other people can pay me to erect it
and let them use it, then break it down and remove it from their site(s)
Another nice little earner to ease my old age & I will employ a casual labourer
to do the major part of the "donkey work", but unlike the shonks who only
"serve their own self interest" I will have all required safety gear & carry proper
insurance for the hired "monkey / donkey"

Pay someone else to do carpentry, painting & other types of building work ?
Only the specific jobs that require licensed tradespersons.

Electrical work, oh that's right I have just spent 4 years constructing, servicing,
repairing and operating specialised equipment, the best globally available,
for the "Induced wave polarisation" method of finding and mapping Copper and
Gold deposits, there has been something of a mining boom going on here in
Australia. Generators driven by turbocharged Perkins Diesel motors,
providing 3 phase power to transmitter units rated from 20 KVA to 120 KVA.

I also get field work as a downhole loggging operator and work with Drillers
and Drill team crews in quite remote places.

You made an accusation of Cowardice on my part, I'd love to see you handle
our "genteel" Australian Drill crews and Drillers, either out in the drillfield or back
at camp when they get a bit of grog in and get a bit argumentative,
or work when the temperature is 43 degrees Celsius IN THE SHADE,
and peaks in the mid 50's Celsius.

I have a great mate who is a driller, and as a source of unsought and
unwanted ( by me ) of pornography he is unbeatable,
I don't even bother looking at 99% of the stuff he sends me via email,
just send it to the trash can.
Yeah, I'd love to see you cope in Macka's presence "out in his playground"

You have made a series of stupid mistakes TC,
Assuming that because I can refute your anti union bullshit as extreme, idealogically
driven propoganda that I am anti capitalist, and incapable of operating as a
succesful capitalist myself.
Assuming that I have no understanding of investment, complex market dynamics,
the role of good Government in regulating Capitalism etc etc

I wonder how you would cope at one of my elderly mother's family dinners,
when Julia is visiting from Sydney & the two Corporate Lawyers are there,
when we discuss politics and economics,
and how you would handle yourself if you insulted my mother after you'd had a few
too many drinks when I took you outside for a lesson in good manners.

I may have been sent for a finishing year at one of Adelaides elite private schools,
but I worked in Hotels and Nightclubs for many years doing all sorts of jobs, not just
mixing drinks & pulling beers, but as a "crowd controller" or Bouncer.
If I have tossed out one drunk, I have tossed out a thousand, and my little nose,
remains unbroken.

There's an old bushies saying in this country " you want an old dog for a hard road"
why ? because a silly young dog won't pace himself, will tear the pads on his feet
out by capering about on sharp stones and not looking where he treads, doesn't
know the tricks to survival, will chase a snake or sniff the wrong spider or insect
and get bitten.

I am no shit hot surfer like a pro, but I get respect at my local breaks,
wonder if you could even paddle out & keep up, and then not fall foul
of the locals because you don't understand our tribal rules.

Now there are plenty of stronger, younger, faster, better men than me about,
and I have no doubts that they would be well able to give me a right flogging
in a fight, plenty of much, much hotter surfers, my best results were twice 6th
and once 5th in the SA state titles back in the 1980's, but those are three in the
top ten results out of three attempts.

I'm also the third generation of my family to play field hockey (not ice hockey )
and made it to district A grade, but not the State, or National team.

you say you want to laugh at me, my advice, do it from a good distance
such as the other side of the Pacific ocean.

you want to get personal & challenge in a physical contest ?

I like to be able to choose weapons, Hockey sticks, on surfboards at Waitpinga
(or even better at the only genuine point reef break nearby, which I won't name,
because we keep it to ourselves and send visitors to Middleton or Goolwa )
on a day when it's at least a minimum genuine 5 to 6 foot swell,
with a real light offshore wind and a glassy surface to the water.

For a succesful Uber capitalist, lashing out on the airfare should not be a problem.

( under the etiquette of duelling, the challenged party chooses weapons and location )

My advice, stick to a purely written exchange TC.

And don't worry about me leaving a decent inheritance for my kids, I do not have any,
but there is my sister's lad, and I have every confidence that between his 2 Lawyer
parents and his slightly ? mad uncle, he will do OK.

Regretably I should probably withdraw from a real stoush with you TC,
I just check'd you player ranking, you are not even in the first 1,000 rank'd players.

Amongst my peers from the old elite private school it is consider'd bad manners
to brawl with the lower classes as it is consider'd to be unsporting.

I remind you of an earlier statement i made & enlarge slightly on it.

I do think Capitalism is the greatest system for humans to use to create wealth,
however I assert that incontrolled and unregulated Capitalism does not distribute
the wealth it creates equitably amongst all the participants in a society.

Why is it better for wealth to be distributed with some decent level of equity
and fairness amongst the participants, and a society ?

I'll answer the second part by reminding y'all of the lesson of the French revolution,
when 2% or less of the individuals in a nation control 98% of that nations wealth,
the inevitable result is bloody revolution, chaos and murder.
( with or without unions )

I invite TC to respond to those specific assertions,
which I note he has fail'd to do to this point in the "debate"

"Amongst my peers from the old elite private school it is consider'd bad manners
to brawl with the lower classes as it is consider'd to be unsporting."

http://w1ffc1ffc1ffc1ffcw1ffcw.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/scarjo_popcorn.gif

please note this correction of a typo error.

however I assert that uncontrolled and unregulated.....
(not incontrolled )

I am not going to look up your http:// w1ffc.... threadbombing..... popcorn.gif
thingy President Eden, I will stick to Fur TV for my laughs, or classic British humour
such as Dad's Army.

Please provide a written summary of what you are trying to tell me

Oh, I do recognise your ranking President Eden, top 2 % is quite admirable.
I am a lazy 290 completed games behind you, so you have the advantage on me
in that regard.

Please recognise that I have stated quite clearly and indicated more than once
that I am quite aware that there are many, many other individuals out there who
are far more succesful than I am in heaps of different ways.

For example I was quite open about my surfing prowess, I am no shit hot surfer
that "could have gone pro", I never won the SA state titles in 3 attempts.

But I firmly refute the assertion that because I have disputed TC's
anti Union assertions, that I am some hopeless dud who cannot make a dollar,
and intellectually incompetent with no understanding of economics or politics.

TC has only completed about 35 games odf Dip on this site & won 4
I have completed nearly 50 games on this site & won, I think 8 and I am rank'd
inside the top 1,000 players.

Am I an incompetent and stupid dud, or do I at least manage a reasonable
performance ?

whether or not I am slightly mad, or even really mad is a different question

Well, my link was just an animated picture of Scarlett Johansson eating popcorn. The picture is meant to indicate amusement at the impending battle of words, 'cause them's fightin' words, Major.

Oh no, do carry on! Reasonable performance *and* highly entertaining!

Also, don't worry. I dunno if you've seen Ms. Johansson before but she doesn't need an ugly hazard.

Ah it is fun, the old verbal stoush.

Religeon & Politics,
I dislike Extremists who peddle simplistic idealogically driven propaganda.


I also get cranky with the "strictly serve your own self interest" philosophy,
because of the implied " and to hell with everyone else" side of it.

we all need the help of others in our community, many times during our lives.
Crikey, the trouble I've got myself into over the years, and the countless times
I have needed the help of others.

If you need and expect other people in your community to help you,
then you have to be prepared, and WILLING to help others and your community.
that's hardly philosophical "rocket science"

Plus I have been incredibly lucky over the years,
I think I should help other fellow humans who suffer or are in hardship.

There was a "philosophy" in Victorian times in England, that there were
the "deserving poor" and the "undeserving poor" and that only the
deserving poor were "worthy" of assistance.
The George Bernard Shaw play, is it "Pygmalion" on which the musical "My Fair Lady"
is based, takes the satiric scalpel to such a pompous & priggish philosophy.

Eliza Doolittle's father proudly identifies himself as belonging to the
"undeserving poor", I think it's hilarious, witty and thought provoking at that
"deeper" level

I do find TC's obsessive worship of material wealth
and those who have lots of it rather curious
it balances his apparent contempt for those who are not materially wealthy.
Is he frantically over compensating for things of which we are unaware ?
you do realise there are no pockets in a shroud ?
you may also wish to consider ( I think it's called ) Lazlo's "Heirarchy of needs"

The definition of "narrow-mindedness", believing that unions and only unions are the solution and all workers should be forced to join a union. "Narrow-mindedness."

How do unions destroy companies?
Unions contracts reduce flexibility of companies to meet rapid changes in the market relative to non-union firms.
If you are GM and you just signed a new union contract with wage, benefit, and pension increases for your workforce and the economy goes into recession you face a handicap not faced by your Korean and Japanese competitors.
Unions prevent modernization of plant and equipment because unions are all about protecting as many jobs as possible.
So non-union companies that can increase productivity with machinery, robots, computers, software, etc. have a definite competitive advantage over union companies.
Union companies have narrower profit margins than non-union companies. Unions celebrate their higher wages for the same work contracts without realizing that these higher wages can't be passed on to the consumer in competition with non-union companies so they must be paid for by smaller profit margins.

All of these raise the cost of capital for union companies.
To modernize they must borrow more because their stock prices are lower than their competitors producing the same product. Union companies don't have as much money.

Investors want to buy the stocks of companies with higher profit margins, better prospects for growth, and higher dividends than union companies.

Slowly but surely union dominated firms in an industry die a slow, painful death and while they are dying the attempt to corrupt the political process in any way they can to outlaw non-union firms.

Why?

Because of course unions can't survive on their own merits.

If you really want to know where America started to decay it is the time when the media and government started support and incentivizing union membership and large corporations over the individual small business.
If you want to see America flourish again repeal the Wagner Act of 1935, abolish the NLRB, and end all forms of corporate welfare and subsidies so that large corporations do not receive any advantage over small business whatsoever.
Then Americans will do what they really do best, start personal businesses staffed by individuals who know their employers and even travel in the same circles outside of work where they would see the individual who signs their check shopping in the same stores.
Talk about “community.” Unions don’t create community. Multi-national corporations don’t create community. Community is intimate and local, not large and grotesque.
This is exactly the kind of business my partner and I own. We hired one new employee last year, and every other employee has over one decade of time with us. Our business is a community where our employees know their value and know they are building something that will provide for them and theirs.
Unions don’t provide that and neither to their synonymous corporations. Both treat individuals as pawns in their power games. Small business is the heart and soul of the nation, and when individuals grow up with a goal of owning their own business instead of wanting to work in a union shop or be a corporate executive then America will be revitalized.

Nice article in the Canadianfreepress.

For decades we have been told that unions help the middle class. We have heard it from unions, from politicians that receive union contributions and from a sympathetic media. However, when one examines the facts this claim is completely false.

How can an organization that represents a small minority the workforce, just over 10%, but whose actions force the other 90% to pay higher prices for everything they purchase and in addition, higher local, state and federal taxes, claim they are helping the middle class? Yet that is exactly the claim that unions and their political supporters have made for decades.

Even in times of greatly expanding union membership, the middle class paid a price for union expansion through higher unemployment and higher prices. Starting in 1933, FDR used the National Industrial Recovery Act (NRA) to encourage companies to establish cartels in most industries and set the minimum prices that could be charged in exchange for favorable unionization policies in their companies. These policies more than doubled the number of union members in just one decade. The Supreme Court ruled that the NRA was unconstitutional 2 years later, but the damage had already been done.

The NRA increased the cost of products by 40% at a time when few people could afford higher prices. Consequently, industrial production fell by 25% after the NRA was enacted. To put this into perspective, by 1930 the economy had already started to recover from the Stock Market Crash of 1929. Unemployment which was 5% before the crash had spiked at 9% in the winter of 1929 and then started to fall. Once the Smoot Hawley Tariff, NRA and other progressive policies were enacted, however, unemployment rose from 9% to 20% and stayed above 15% for the rest of the decade. It was not until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and 12 million people were inducted into the military, that employment returned to pre-Stock Market Crash levels.

Today, union membership is a far cry from its peak in the 1950s when 30% of the workforce was unionized. Only about 10% of the workforce is unionized and approximately half of that total works for local, state and federal governments.

When unions in a manufacturing company make wage or benefit demands or impose restrictive work rules, they raise the cost of products that the company makes. If few other companies make that product, the other 90% of the middle class is forced to pay higher prices. However in many cases, suppliers in other countries are able to provide that product at a lower cost. This eliminates American middle class jobs. The demise of the steel and auto industries is a perfect example of what happens when union demands exceed the realities of the market place. When an entire industry is decimated by the exorbitant wages and benefits of a few unionized companies, the middle class is hurt by lost jobs throughout that industry.

Unions in the public sector are even more damaging to the middle class. As the result of unions using member dues to help elect both Democratic and Republican politicians that will support union wages and benefit demands, only 10% of the workforce is able to impose costs that the other 90% of taxpayers must pay for. When these same politicians allow extravagant retirement benefits in union contracts, but fail to fund the benefits to avoid making the taxpayers aware of the true costs, the middle class is hurt even more. Many states will not allow the modification of union retirement benefits regardless of the extravagance of the benefits or the cost to the taxpayers. The middle class taxpayer is ultimately left to fund the benefits promised by union supported politicians but never funded.

Unions have done an excellent job of portraying themselves as the defender of the middle class. In reality, whether the union concentration is 30% or 10%, the only people that have benefited from unionization are union members and union leaders, to the detriment of the rest of the middle class.

@T Chew.

Impressive the way you managed to remove your hands from your genitals for long enough to cut and paste that...

Once again TC you misrepresent me if you are claiming
that I have made any statement(s) that supported compulsory union membership
and I do note that you complain about "blue collar" unions

What about the compulsory unions auch as the Bar Associations
that represent Lawyers ?
They have the classic "closed shop"
you accept and support the inneficient work prctices in the Judicial system ?
you support the Bar Associations achievments in achieving salaries and conditions
that are hugely disproportionate compared to the salaries and conditions for the
other professionals working in the justice system such as police ???

I also note there are cities and towns in the US where there are no police
because the municpal authority that employed them is technically insolvent
and cannot pay police,
and you continue to "blame" the GFC on the "unions" at Lehmann bank ???

YadHoGrojaUl may have expressed his comment in a somewhat crude fashion,
but the more you "wank" on, the bigger tosser you are reveal'd to be

A serious question in TC's direction.

In the UK we often have the problem that unions have a minority percentage of a workforce as their membership, but this minority contains a high percentage of the lilitant left wing. As a result when the union votes to strike there is a high chance of them voting yes, and often the whole organisation is adversely effected.

Could it not be argued that by making every worker join the union you make the union itself more balanced and reasonable, and far less likely to take part in unwise and damaging actions?

Crude, moi!

Octavious makes a good point. I personally fail to see why non union members should benefit from wages, terms and conditions negotiated by the union...

TC will get back to you as soon as he finds the proper cut and paste article to answer your question.

Octavius, you can apply that "argument" more widely
For example, when voter turnout in an election is low,
then you can get well organised minorities (often from the political extremes )
winning and imposing an extreme policy agenda on the silent majority.

You have touched on the "responsibility to participate" principle

the old saying "Evil prospers when good persons remain silent"
is another way of expressing that idea

"I personally fail to see why non union members should benefit from wages, terms and conditions negotiated by the union..."

TC supports freeloading. Everybody else gets their head kicked in by police, takes all the risks of strike, but freeloaders get all the benefits.

That block of text savaging TC was both excessive and fantastic.