The conquest of Mecca ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_Mecca

The February and October Revolutions in St-Petersburg in 1917 ?

OK, Pearl Harbor, but not for the typical "Oh, what an awful defeat." If Japan does not attack, then Germany does not declare war three days later, then the US does not supply the Soviet Union, then the Soviet Union falls in 1942/43, etc. Pearl Harbor is a fantastic, though horrific for the time, gift in hindsight for the United States and the Allies. As Churchill later admitted, upon hearing the news he got the first good night's sleep he'd had in months.

Hastings does actually deserve to be up there. The Norman invasion embroiled England and then Britain, in hundreds of years of war about legitimacy, succession and superiority. It wasn't until 1815 that it was solved...

Trafalgar beats out Waterloo. Waterloo was inevitable for Napoleon. Trafalgar ended any plans Napoleon had to challenge Britain on the high seas.

BoB is NOT my number 1 as an invasion of britain proper would have most certainly brought the US into the war and to Britain's aid and germany would have had a rough go of fighting the british on british soil, let alone getting past the royal navy in the channel. In addition, germany having committed to a time consuming and costly invasion of Britain, Stalin may have initiated the surprise attack in the east for all we know.

El Alamein, Midway/Coral Sea, and Battle of the Atlantic were other defining battles of WWII that ranked pretty high up there in importance along with the Battle of Britain, Stalingrad, and Normandy in their strategic importance.

oh and semck83 +1 for Pelennor fields, haha

I've always thought Helm's Deep was a major turning point as it eliminated one of Sauron's staunchest allies. Although Pelennor Fields could have gone a very different way had the Corsairs not been intercepted and their ships taken for use by the coastal towns of Gondor and the Rangers under Aragorn's command.

Tours was not about turning back the muslim threat, the Muslim force at Tours was a raiding force not a conquering army

Now how about the real top 10

Platea and Marathon (did the same thing)

Battle of the Metaurus (207 BC)- Hasdrubal Barca is prevented from reaching his brother, causing Hannibal to flee from Italy, Zama was the result of this battle.

Battle of Milvian Bridge (314)- Responsible for a little thing we call "Christianity"

Manzikert (1071)- The high watermark of Byzantium, chose this over Fall of Constantinople, because that was pretty much a forgone conclusion.

Battle of Ayn Jalut 1260- Mongols finally defeated by Mamaluks.

The Siege of Vienna (1528- The high water mark of the ottoman empire

Lepanto (1571)- Second part of the reigning in of the ottomans, establishes a balance of power in the Mediterranean where an ottoman hegemony was possible

Battle of Quiberon Bay 1759- Prevented the reinforcement of French forces in North America during the Seven Years War, ensured naval superiority for Britain throughout the rest of the war and for another 50 years and was decisive in a war that shaped North America as we know it.

Waterloo


Stalingrad

Honorable Mentions-

Poltava- Swedish power is broken and Russia establishes itself as leader of the north and eastern russia
Battle of France- Changed the world as we know it despite Hitlers ultimate demise
Guatemala- Ensures greek superiority over the Persians
Trafalgar-
Midway- Although I don't believe Japan was ever a threat to alter world history.
Battle of Tsushima- Defeat of Russian fleet leads to rise of Japan and its empire.
Spanish Armada (if that counts) along with the Kamizazee
Korean defeat of Japan in the 1500s

I think Dienbienphu should be up there too, because it was pretty vital to the post-colonial future of SE Asia.

didnt see putins, he had some good ones

And to add to the most important fake battles of all time.

The battle of the Trident!

Battle of Gravelines also known for the Spanish Armada attacking England
also great thread

actually might have opened doors to spoilers there please don't!

@ Draug - actually only in the movies is Saruman a staunch ally of Sauron. In the books, appendices and other writings of Tolkien, it is apparent that Saruman actually desired the one ring for himself and would have eventually turned on Sauron. Though of course it would have been much too late. Though of course by the time of the events of the books it was already too late for a purely military victory anyway. Sauron's forces were literally too strong to defeat right from the start, which is the kind of nonsensical conceit that can only exist in a fantasy (or occasionally sci-fi) novel.

Hastings and Lepanto.

If not for Lepanto we wouldn't have a name for the single most common alliance in the game of Diplomacy!

@Mafia - true, but until that time and as long as the free people of Middle-earth continued to rule, he was happy to play "ally" to Sauron was what I meant. You'll note my description of the events surrounding the Corsairs is from the books. As much as I love the visuals of having the dead arrive at Pelennor, they weren't there. Aragorn freed them after they clreared the Corsairs from the ships. Likewise, I love the interpretation that put the Elves at Helm's Deep, but that was the Ranger's in the book.

that is really the most common alliance?

@Santa - Spoilers for what? History? A 40+ year old book? A 10 year old movie series?

@ Draug - What's funny is that I was trying to parody the arguments people get into on these military history threads about the relative importance of various historical battles that most people who don't follow military history don't really know that much about, by doing the same thing about Middle Earth. I find it funny that I actually managed to start a real parallel debate about Middle Earth. I was kind of being a troll. Just an incredibly subtle one.

@ SantaClausowitz - Or so I'm lead to believe. I'm skeptical myself, partly because I don't like using it, and partly because you end up just in an early stalemate with the almost equally inevitable Juggernaut.

The Battle of Saratoga. Major turning point in the American Revolution: ruined Burgoyne's Saratoga Campaign, brought France into the conflict, rewrote the course of American history for the next 300 years.

Anyone paying attention to Salimis? Its very important.

"@Santa - Spoilers for what? History? A 40+ year old book? A 10 year old movie series?"

A Song of Ice and Fire

I'll give a bit of background on Dienbienphu, then. It was a massive victory for the Vietnamese against the French, resulting in the end of the first Indochina War. It's considered the first time an indigineous people began with a guerilla movement then escalated to be capable of defeating a colonial power through conventional army strength. The French grossly underestimated the Vietnamese, and during this battle, were unprepared for the shelling that the Vietnamese were able to do. This caused France to pretty much unconditionally flee from Southeast Asia and set the stage for growing nationalist movements there, which would later embroil the western powers again in the Vietnam War after the USA canceled the elections that were agreed upon in the treaty ending the First Indochina War.

how was defeat at Waterloo inevitable?

It was not inevitable, just likely. After all, according to the laws of quantum mechanics, nothing is impossible, only unlikely. And if you believe in the infinite universe interpretation of quantum mechanics then there are many universes where Napoleon won, and where i'm not even on this site making this post. And one where each of us rule the world. (Pity im not in the one where i do.)

I don't even think it was likely, I think it was very possible that he could win that battle had certain things worked out differently.

I personally agree. I am a huge Napoleon admirer myself and for that hate the duke of welington. (purposely misspelled and not capitalized to show insult)

"Guatemala- Ensures greek superiority over the Persians"

Were the Mayans around to spectate?