Live games count.

PPSC and games with CDs don't.

"but as you even say he had nothing to do with it aside from being a unifying figure"

Which was exactly what the country needed, in addition he kept the country neutral in the Napoleonic wars, negotiated the end of British control over the Ohio Country, and ensured safe navigation of the Mississippi with spain. He put down rebellions in Pennsylvania that established the authority of the Federal Government,established customs of the presidency such as the appointment of the cabinet and the chief justice, and finally lent prestige, legitimacy, and trustworthiness to the Federal Government. If you want more, you just need to understand that the presidency wasn't then what it is now.

I always liked Washington for his independence. How many Presidents would have appointed both Jefferson and Hamilton to high posts in the cabinet (at least since Jackson)? Also, as has been mentioned, he helped establish several long-lived precedents that were undoubtedly a great help to the stability of the early republic. i.e. two terms, the farewell address.
RE: the two terms. Whatever the motivation, I don't see how you can dispute this was an important step in creating the stability of succession we have today. The man could have been President his whole life. Hell, he was practically the only one in North America with a major armed force at the end of the revolution; he could have been more than that. You need only look at the fates of some of the anti-colonial revolutions in Latin America since then to see the value of a military leader who was willing to give up his power.

And Eden... We're just busting your chops for fun. You are skilled enough at the game.

Definitely Reagan and Kennedy.

I would argue that Washington was extremely important, even if only symbolically, to the founding of the republic. On the other hand, the question asks for the most overrated, not the least important presidents. The borderline deification of Washington following the Revolution and his continued cult of personality significantly overshadow his achievements and vision as president. So yes, it would be fair to consider him one of the most overrated presidents.

I'm inclined to say Jackson, but I suspect that his contemporaries might not have seen the Trail of Tears as as much of a blemish as I do. He achieved a great deal during his presidency, but at tremendous cost to democratic principles. Maybe more misremembered than overrated.

Ah, but Draugnar, you only play WTA, right? So then I'd also have to remove all the PPSC games from my total games played, which would drop the number substantially. Can't have it both ways. (And even if you can, 21/304 is 7%, 6/120 is 5%. Mine's 40% better.)

I've played 125 WTA games and won 21 of them. 17%. 3x as good as you.

(Furthermore, the majority of my PPSC games saw people try to stop a solo instead of taking a strong second anyway. So even the idea that all PPSC games are automatically invalid is wrong. But I don't have the time to go through and find which PPSC solos had people trying to stop me and which didn't, and I don't need to do that to prove my point, so I'll concede the point out of practical constraints instead of acceptance of the argument.)

Ok he crushed and removed the Ohio Indians (isn't Jackson attacked for this type of thing?) and Jay's Treaty (which he didn't even like) made Spain think the US and Britain were up to an alliance so they gave up the Mississippi. Good. But isn't the Whiskey Rebellion a demonstration that Washington faced the same kind of civil unrest his three successors did? The Whiskey Rebellion was widely believed to be a partisan war against the Republicans.

Once again Washington gets credit for stuff other people did (namely Hamilton and Jay), and acts of rebellion are glossed over because it happened on his watch.

I figured, but pardon me for stating my case anyway -- I actually got called out by someone (who will remain nameless) in private who outright told me I didn't deserve my spot, so yeah.

OK, recalculate just WTA wins with no CDs and just WTA games. I bet your 21 count goes down when you eliminate games with CDs in them.

But I am really just having a little fun at your expense. :-)

But then I have to go count through 304 games for CDs. I know I'm a humanities student but even *I* don't have that much free time...

I'm not sure if I've ever won a game with a serious (non 1-2 center) CD in it. I probably have. I guess there's no point to me posting here.

I mjust confess that half my wins came from League games, which, while WTA, also have their own bit of meta going in making them similar to PPSC in some respects.

Also, on CDs... not all of them are particularly pivotal. Obviously you have some that are (I remember distinctly taking a win in a gunboat once; I was Turkey, and a 12-center Germany CDed, and I was going to draw, but everyone was demanding a 5-way which included 1-center Russian and Italian rovers. I drew up a stalemate line at less than 18 and waited, but RI kept running around grabbing bits of Germany so I said fuck it and ran through the rest of CD Germany and won.) And even the 1-2 center situations can be pivotal; witness a 3-unit Germany in his home centers, not turning in orders to defend Berlin from roving Austrian hordes, or even a 2-center Turkey tying up a half-dozen Austrian units around the Black Sea. But not all of them really make a big difference (just like how some PPSC games are played WTA style, with people trying to stop a solo, or just like how some WTA games [league play] are played PPSC style).

But trying to figure out which ones matter and which ones don't would be a major pain in the ass.

"Ok he crushed and removed the Ohio Indians (isn't Jackson attacked for this type of thing?) and Jay's Treaty (which he didn't even like) made Spain think the US and Britain were up to an alliance so they gave up the Mississippi. Good. But isn't the Whiskey Rebellion a demonstration that Washington faced the same kind of civil unrest his three successors did? The Whiskey Rebellion was widely believed to be a partisan war against the Republicans.

Once again Washington gets credit for stuff other people did (namely Hamilton and Jay), and acts of rebellion are glossed over because it happened on his watch."

The Whiskey rebellion, shortly lived and limited in scope, did not compare to the danger faced when Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Mass. mobilized their militia against each other after the election of 1800, or when New England discussed seceding and siding with England at the close of 1812. It was a rebellion against excise taxes in western Pennsylvania rather than a possible Civil War. It was quashed with minimal violence and was diffused by Washington's largess in dealing with the Rebels.

And Draug, you don't play high stakes games. So your games aren't really on the same level as a game with 500 or so for a pot. So that would "logically" make your games easier to play, because people wouldn't be as worried about losing it. I've went through a lot of your games and they are 5 bids, and For the record. You've never won a PPSC match, which in itself, is pretty disappointing. :) Because I know for a fact that if I can do it, and I know how good you are, you can sure as hell do it.

and I don't know how you can say the Whiskey Rebellion is glossed over, if anything it is trumpeted and the acts I discuss are barely ever mentioned.

@Scmoo472 - Except that I also don't tend to play non-invite games. My games may not have high pots, but they have some high quality players. You trying playing the B-level and A-level (and even the occasional Premiere level) League players. Trust me, just because there isn't a lot of cash in the pot, doesn't mean these players aren't playing for their reputation.

It was Hamilton who called for a strong military response to the whiskey rebellion. Washington initially wanted to negotiate and failed. Washington also blamed the rebellion on the Republican societies, a reason for his opposition to political parties and why he thought the Republicans were all subversives who wanted to destroy the government. If anything the rebellion hardened political divisions that would plague Washington's successors. I hardly think he should be given credit for "stabilizing" the union just because things fell apart worse after he left. That's like absolving Bush from blame of the bad economy that Obama inherited in his first months of office with 800,000 new jobless per month. The cost of crushing the rebellion likely didn't even equal the amount of tax collected.

Anyway if you're going to say that the Louisiana Purchase fell into Jefferson's lap, then you must also do so with the Pinckney Treaty during Washington's term.

"Washington also blamed the rebellion on the Republican societies, a reason for his opposition to political parties and why he thought the Republicans were all subversives who wanted to destroy the government"

Just like Republicans thought Feds were seeking to subvert the revolution, the idea of loyal opposition was still decades away, read Sharp's "American Politics in the Early Republic: The New Nation In Crisis" It was hardly a failing ofWwashington alone the feeling was ubiquitous among what Sharp calls "Proto-Parties" also see Hofstadters "The Evolution of the Party System."

"If anything the rebellion hardened political divisions that would plague Washington's successors"

I hardly think so. Future republicans took pains to distance themselves from the Whiskey Rebels rather than using their grievances to harden political divisions.

"Anyway if you're going to say that the Louisiana Purchase fell into Jefferson's lap, then you must also do so with the Pinckney Treaty during Washington's term."

Don't know why,

Re-elect President Eden

Eden 2012

thanks, eden, for adding proof on why I think live games aren't the same as regular ones and, as such, should be weighted when determining ghost rating.

Also, Fallout3 rocks my pants off (but I still am more of a mass effect fan).

also, I find it amusing that I wrote this thread to poke fun at eden, and show my love of a video game... but people are talking about true overrated presidents...
So this was an off topic thread that went... on topic. Crazy!

weighted more or less? truer to the spirit of the game > not (ergo live > nonlive)

and yeah, that was/is hilarious, but I didn't want to ruin their fun by telling them they were off-topic

Franklin D. Roosevelt.

His failed economic policies made the Depression last far longer than it otherwise would have.
His establishment of entitlements led to the massive debt problems we have today.
His failed to stop the Holocaust when he easily could have.
He was so inept dealing with Stalin that he caused the Cold War.

Fallout 3 is one of the most underrated games ever. It will be the standard by which all future role playing shooters are judged.

That being said, I think Reagan is not overrated at all.

He won the Cold War. 'Nuff said.

And he broke the horrible tradition of pussyfooting with communists.

We knew, as we can, in fact read, it was just that we didn't give a crap...

Er...Reagan had more summits with Soviet leaders than any other President. Soviet military spending went up 0.4% of GDP during the Reagan build up. Gorbachov lost the Cold War, Reagan didn't win it.