*believe=agree

@Saffron - It's not a question of semantics. You asked if uber-extra terrestrials have a right to treat us poorly. I say that it's not up to us whether they have the right to do anything to us. If a fleet of UFOs suddenly appears over Chicago and starts picking up random passersby for genetic experiments or dinner, do you really think it's going to do any good for us to tell them they haven't got the right? Only if they respect sentience. The bottom line is, they make their own rights, so yes, if their culture says that they can mistreat us, then they can.

groza+1

Yeah. And I wish more guys were role models. I'm just saying it's not their job. And that its naive to blame Randy Moss and 50 cent for the problems of america's youth Better parenting would be great, less systematic discrimination would be neat, school reform would be great,. Voting guys like Fenty out of office isn't going to help.

Vick committed a crime, was convicted, and served his sentence. No one should have a problem with him being a free, successful man today. If you think his sentence was too lenient then your problem is with the laws and the legal system, not with Vick.

also guys he literally just the best half in the history of sports. 14 for 18, 264 yards, 3 tds. 6 carries, 66 yards, 2 tds. perfect passer rating. no big deal.

@Frank
Immaterial to the discussion. His skill as a football player adds nothing to whether he should be praised or condemned.

Here is my thoughts on Vick.

What he did was horrible, and dogfighting is never something that should be done, ever. But he also payed for what he did. (before we get into the debate about the length of his sentence again, he spent the time in jail that the legal system mandated, without complaint, and that is enough for me).

I also have a lot of respect for what he has done since he came out of the joint. He has turned his life around, by making it back into the NFL, and being successful. He has apologized, and hasn't complained.

As for the BS about how he shouldn't be hired because he was a dogfighter, I think that people who have served their sentences should be allowed to work again until they commit another crime, then they should get fired and put back in jail. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty. As long as he isn't dogfighting again (or anyone can prove he is) he is innocent, and should be treated as such.

@Con, the only reason he should be praised is his skill as a football player.

@Cronscript: I started this thread to discuss his prowess in the pocket and his unprecedented elusive ability downfield. so no, its not immaterial. its also great because im sure mcnabb taught him a lot of this. he is better than he ever was in atlanta and is legitimately the frontrunner for mvp at this point.

I also agree entirely with what thejoeman said.

@thejoeman

I agree. He's done his time. It's just that when people talk about the "great" things Vick has done, I think that they should remember he's done some terrible things, too. And, to be clear, it's not like he's "changed his life around." His still playing football. A game. He isn't doing anything incredible with his life. Not that I expect him to. I just that should be mentioned.

@abg

I agree that he hasn't "become a new man" or anything, but I would contend that he has changed his life around, when he was caught for dogfighting almost everyone hated him, and he spent time in jail. I do agree that he isn't being a superhero, but he has turned his life back around

Yeah, then I'd say you and I are pretty much in agreement.

Obviously I don't have any inside info or anything but apparently he has turned his life around. Sure, he's still just playing football but he's apparently playing with a much better work ethic and much more leadership than before. Also, he's surrounding himself with upstanding guys like Dungy rather than his ol buddies from Newport News.

@abg

*high five*

@Cronscript

Functionally, sport fishing would be considered torture if done to humans. I don't think the hooking and dragging are very pleasant to a fish's perception.

@abgemacht

I don't think celebrities get off cheaply in the justice system. I believe this was Vick's first offense, and he did prison time for an offense that was not committed against another human being. That seems fairly harsh to me. Let's also not forget that a celebrity's reputation almost never recovers from a criminal charge, let a lone a conviction.

he commited a crime, was sentenced to jail, was let out, and is attempting to rejoin regular (or in his case celebrity) life.
This may sound odd, but i think he sets a good example for convicts

Let me point out to my fellow Diplomats that if Vick's PR manager wants to make his life look a certain way, he has many tools at his disposal to craft any image he wants. I think any remorse Vick's shown is simply hard-to-distinguish regret at being caught.

I'm impressed that animals are being defended on here so vociferously, and it seems krellin's the only hater out there and everyone else has been really respectful. Quite different from the Neanderthals commonly encountered on facebook.

I also think Vick should be banned. He's a murderer, not of humans but of an animal with an equal capacity for physical and mental suffering, and should be regarded as such. It's like the discussion the commentators had when Cowboy R. Williams got knocked out by helmet-to-helmet contact w/ Green Bay safety N. Collins: fines don't do shit and you've gotta prevent these guys from playing the game if you're to deliver a punishment that'll make an impression. Instead of a fine, kick his ass out of the game, immediately.

Similarly, Vick is a POS whose behavior is condoned by the NFL by letting him return. I think the NFL, in legislating on stupid crap like celebration types and smart crap like helmet-to-helmet (which can paralyze a guy) have shown that they do not feel their only job is to set up football games. They know that millions of kids are watching and by allowing Vick back, they say "check it, criminal activity is no problem!" Low-income Americans have enough obstacles to overcome without trying to reconcile leading an ethical life and having to look at 60,000 Eagles fans cheering for a dog murderer each weekend.

Fair enough. Survival of the fittest and all. I suppose I just have a much more altruistic/benevolent idea of how the world should operate. But as long as we all agree that any species whom should present themselves as more intelligent and capable than us only must treat us as well as we treat lowlier species, then I guess there isn't an argument.

How does hiring a guy who has been in prison mean you are condoning his crime? its that attitude that makes it so difficult to reintegrate ex-cons into society

also murderer means you killed a human. or else you are a murderer by swatting a fly. or by eating a hamburger or whatnot.

@Frank;
I don't believe killing an animal is akin to murder, but no. Not even most vegans believe killing insects is murder because they don't have the ability to suffer (feel pain).

@Saffron: i was responding to Ruisdael not you. sorry.

There is research to suggest that insects have sensations similar to pain.

Care to post some proof? Not saying I think you're lieing, but all research I've seen has proven to the contrary.

@Saffron

It's a few years old, but from CalTech, so should be pretty legit:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WSN-48DVVK5-G&_user=10&_coverDate=04/18/2003&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userID=10&md5=80aa01c2735d1f42811125987597acd6#secx7

+1 for Abgemacht's barrel of kittens scenario

Thanks. I like to think those types of things out in advance so I don't hesitate when the time comes.

I don't get it, Ruis was talking about banning Vick for what? Getting out of jail? He was banned for dogfighting already. He was out of football for, what, 3 years? 3 years wasn't enough? Have you no belief in the ability for a human being to learn from their mistakes and to change their lifestyles accordingly?

@ Frank: You hit the nail on the head. I can't imagine where I'd be if no one gave me a second chance. Probably homeless, dead or back in jail.