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A place to discuss topics/games with other webDiplomacy players.
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taylornottyler (100 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
If you could desing a speedo...
What would you want on it?

I'm submitting some designs to a manufacturer later this week to hopefully get a job or internship as a designer, and you as the customer should voice your opinion on what you would like.
28 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
"I Believe" vs. "I Know": If You Had To Choose, Which Is Better For Man To Focus On?
If I just took that hour or so on the bus to college in silence like a normal schmuck I might just go a whole day without a new question popping in my head--but who wants THAT? Not me! A couple of people from class and I got into a debate with the whole of the bus, everyone taking sides on the following question: which is stronger/better, to have faith or to know; NOT whether or not God exists, but if He did--would you rather have faith in Him or know he existed, which is better for the soul?
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LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Faith is something that you can lose, knowledge is not (save for senility/brain damage--for which faith is also lost)
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
@dwburke - the bridge was something called an analogy or a metaphor. But I suppose those concepts weren't introduced in remedial English at your trade school.
dwburke (301 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Faith is a belief is something unprovable or unproved. Such as, "When you die, you will live forever in paradise".
dwburke (301 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
How about we go back to the original claim:

This is how I will prove that knowledge is impossible:

Give me a statement you claim to know, and tell me why you think you know it.

Nothing really esoteric in that statement. Seems pretty clear. Doesn't even hint a being even mildly religeous. I think that he thinks he can punch holes in everything like some Zen master. I'm still waiting to see him do it, it should be facinating.
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
I hadn't seen that one. You are correct. It is an off the wall thought.

@Thucy - I know I exist.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
Alright lol there's a lot of claims here. I will try to see to you all.

First of all let me clear up confusion by being more nuanced in my statement.

Saying "knowledge is impossible" is admittedly an oversimplification.

What is a better statement is perhaps "I don't know anything, not even that I know nothing."

Even more nuanced is saying: I have not yet come across something that I thought I knew. I may in the future, but that is just one more thing I do not know.

Now to your claims.

I think I answered you, Typical Guy, if not I can rephrase.

dwburke says he knows he's hungry. Does he though? How can he be sure it is not just a feeling that he takes for hunger. What if he goes to eat and realizes that the feeling was not hunger at all, but instead it was, say, stomach acid dissolving his insides? Dwburke, can you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are really hungry? Is there any room for doubt? If there is, you do not know it, you only believe or suppose it or think it to be likely.

Dwburke again, on the triangle.
There are two reasons I (and also you I presume) do not know this. For one, this is merely tautological in that this is a definition given for a triangle.

But furthermore, you do not know that there cannot be a triangle that does not meet those requirements (putting aside your tautological definition of a triangle for a moment, which honestly nullifies your point). If you can acknowledge that, say, God made a triangle that is not like that or that there is triangle not like that in another dimension, etc., then you acknowledge you cannot know this about a triangle.

Just because I can't *draw* you such a triangle does not mean it does not exist. But anyway as I said your statement is tautological.

@Maniac spelling knowledge is a priori. It is not a "fact" that you can know per se. It is related to dwburke's post about triangles in that you only know it because you have defined a characteristic of it yourself. You don't actually know anything, you've only said, "knowledge is spelled K-N-O-W etc. Why? Because that's how its spelled."

If you don't understand I can try to clarify. As to having "seen it spelt that way many times, it follows spelling rules and it is easily understood that when I type/write knowledge in this way that the people i am corresponding with know what I mean."

Allow me to break down the claims you are making:

1) You trust your memory (which could be fooling you) when it tells you you have seen knowledge spelled that way before.
2) There are "spelling rules" to be followed. That is a fact that you are claiming to know as well, but cannot. How do you know there are spelling rules? Is it because words are spelled the same all the time? That again relies on memory, but even if your memory is accurate, it relies on inductive reasoning which is also not really knowledge, since it could turn out wrong on the 1001st time.
3) You type and write "knowledge" and assume without knowing for sure that there are others to read it, that they understand you, and that they saw it at all.

Once again, if you can imagine a scenario in which what you just said is not actually the case, then you do not know it, but merely suppose it. To know you must be certain, and nothing is certain.

Back to dwburke. You claim we are able to communicate. How do you know we are able to communicate? How do you know there is a we? What if it is just you? What basis do you have that provides complete certainty for knowing that claim?

And no I meant all knowledge Draug, including of God, which is what makes me a "strong agnostic."

You cannot lose knowledge if you never had it, LordVipor. You can *believe* you know something, which many of you seem to do, but beliefs are often wrong. That's just the way it is.

Draug thinks he knows he exists. On what basis Draug? Your thoughts?

I will admit to you that this, at one time, was the last frontier for me, the last thing I gave up that I thought I knew. But even this could be wrong.

What do you know about "I" or "existing?" You believe you know you exist because of your thoughts, but how do you know those thoughts are what you presume?

That is, how do you know that it logically follows, "I think, therefore I am?" Descartes imagined an evil deceiver who was omnipotent, capable of deceiving him in every way, even twisting logic. He then asked, what do I still know?

He thought the only thing left was that he existed. I dispute this.

When he said: "I think *therefore* I am" he was relying on logic. If logic is twisted as well, perhaps the *correct* conclusion is "I think, therefore I am not." He would not know this though, since logic is twisted. If he ever existed at all of course.

I admit to you Draugnar that your is the hardest to refute. It is mind-bending. But the point is, in that situation as well I can imagine a scenario in which I do not actually exist.

And now to cover my ass:

The smarter ones among you may jump out and say "AHA! But you make assumptions of your own! How can you know THOSE? Such as: 'If you can imagine a scenario in which it is not true, you cannot know it.' But Thucy!" you might say, "Does that not ALSO rely on logic, which you yourself have questioned?"

Yes it does rely on logic. But if you concede that logic is also up for debate, what you claim to know either? Everything we say relies on logic. I do not claim that anything I say is knowable. I do not claim that anything is knowable. It could all be wrong, or it could all be right. See my first post on the matter of faith in OT Gods, Brahman, Buddha, or the FSM. All have claim.

So there you go. I will clarify points that may not be so clear readily.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
Sorry to hijack your thread obi, if that's what I've done. Lol. I just answered your question is all.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
By the way let me be clear in saying that one of the things I do not claim to know anything about is whether there is such a thing as absolute truth. I do not deny it in the least, but I also do not necessarily agree that it is the only possibility.
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
@Thucy - if I can't know I exist because reality has been twisted, then the word know and knowledge may also have been twisted as well as the word not. As a result "I think therefore I am not" may be true because not may now be a positive modifier and the rest of the language always imply the negative.
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
I agree. As I said anything is possible since nothing is known.
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
@thucy:
You cannot lose knowledge if you never had it, LordVipor. You can *believe* you know something, which many of you seem to do, but beliefs are often wrong. That's just the way it is.

I didn't say one could lose knowledge, I said one could lose faith.

I guess that we have to agree on the definition of knowledge. One does not
know" "truths" because you can get into the philosophy blah blah of what is truth, blah blah what is a fact blah.
But practically, the word knowledge is a confident understanding of something.

For me the difference lies in "I know blah", "I think blah", and "I have faith in blah"- those three are fundamentally different.

Know: unless that person is lying, with well defined parameters, blah is irrefutable. Using euclidian geometry a triangle has 180 degrees. Going being its simple definition, you can "know" more things about the triangle such as the ratios of the lengths, if all three sides are equal, epicenters, etc...

Think: maybe blah is and maybe blah isn't, I am open to it. I think a triangle's internal angles add up to 180 degrees, but certainly if you project that triangle on the surface of a three dimensional object the degrees can certainly add up to more (360 on a cube, >180 on a sphere).

Faith: To me, blah is, to you it might be different. I have faith that this triangle has magical properties and it makes me feel happy to wear it.
"But practically, the word knowledge is a confident understanding of something."

Then the difference between it and faith is a distinction without a difference.
Maniac (189 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
@Thucy – you seem to be saying that our knowledge cannot be knowledge because nothing is certain merely supposition. I think knowledge can be elastic based on the circumstances and the risk of accepting the gaps in our knowledge.

By way of illustration let me go back to Obiwan’s bridge. I ‘know’ that if I walk across a footbridge in London that I will be safe. There are of course circumstances where I won’t be safe, there may be a earthquake larger than the safe design load, for example but I’m prepared to take that risk based on my knowledge of history, civil engineering and governments health and safety record.

I don’t need to know beyond a shadow of doubt that the bridge is safe, I’m happy with my limited knowledge and even accept that in 200 years time people may look back and say “how primitive that bridge was, etc”.

There are other circumstances for example in a murder case where a jury would need to know beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty. There may be other circumstances where the test is even higher – I want to know that I turned the electric off before I work on the electrics.

I accept that we may be an experiment performed by mice and nothing is real, but in my constructed reality (which I appear to be sharing with you and others at the moment) my knowledge is sufficient.
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Going beyond it's simple definition*
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Your think example is good except that it ceases to be a triangle because it is no longer consisting of line intersection and line segments and becomes arc intersections making arc segments. But I did get your point.

And the rest of Thucy's argument against knowing I exist is bogus because he is presenting the possibility that the word knowing doesn't really mean knowing or the word exists means to be. These are words and that is language pedantry. The concepts are valid and constant. Knowing/knowledge as a concept is always constant. Existing as a concept is also a constant. Therefore I can know I exist. By shear virtue that I perceive something, even if that something is being twisted and isn't reality, I exist.
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Then the difference between it and faith is a distinction without a difference.

but with Faith, no one claims they have a confident understanding of God or Mystical things do they? Isn't the whole definition of those that its beyond mere human understanding?
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Draug:
Its still a triangle (in 2 dimensions) if you view it from a certain angle (single view in 2-D). But if you can move it around, you'll see that it is more complex. Similar to how a sphere looks like a circle in 2-D.
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Then in two dimensions the angles still total 180 degrees. What rules you apply to viewing must also be applied to measuring.
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
And yes, I fully grasp spatial geometry.
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
And yes, I fully grasp spatial geometry.
No, I know, sorry if it sounded like an insult.
I was merely trying to point out that just saying "A triangle has 180 degrees if you sum up its internal angles" is ambiguous since there are several dimensions and there are triangles with more than 180 degrees.
"I think a triangle has ..." is fine.
To use "I know" you have to define much more strict parameters, such as adding "In 2-Dimensions" so that you can be absolutely irrefutably true.
"but with Faith, no one claims they have a confident understanding of God or Mystical things do they? Isn't the whole definition of those that its beyond mere human understanding?"

Faith isn't applied merely to the supernatural. Look at your bridge example:

"based on my knowledge of history, civil engineering and governments health and safety record"

We can logically deduce that you either observed this information in person, or learned this from another source.
*In the first instance (personal observation), you are taking on faith that your senses and memory are functioning properly. You have no means of proving this is the case; you assume this is so and work from there. That is an example of faith.
*In the second instance (others' observations), you are not only taking on faith that your senses and memory were functioning properly when you were informed of the information in question, but you are also taking on faith that the senses and memory of the first observer were functioning properly when the information was first recorded.

Faith is applied with *any* objective statement. To say "I saw a bird this morning" is really to say "Assuming my senses and memory are working right, I saw a bird this morning" -- and that fundamental assumption is one that you yourself cannot prove to be true. Nor can you even ask someone to prove it true for you -- after all, they're in the same boat, how could you know they're observing things correctly?
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
04 Aug 10 UTC
@LordVipor

"A triangle has 180 degrees if you sum up its internal angles" is ambiguous since there are several dimensions and there are triangles with more than 180 degrees."

This is pedantic to the extreme. Euclidean geometry is the default unless mentioned otherwise.

That's like saying 10 is ambiguous because it could be 10 base 10 or 10 base 2.
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
I'm starting to feel like I'm in the middle of Dark Star here and the Captain is trying to explain how Bomb #20's information is from a faulty circuit and should be ignored but, by using strict logic, Bomb #20 deduces that all external information should be ingored because any of it might be faulty...
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
04 Aug 10 UTC
@Draug

That's why conversations like this are, for the most part, pointless. In the most philosophical sense, true knowledge is impossible. Luckily, philosophy doesn't build bridges, or cars, or telephones. Do I *know* that F=ma? No, but every time I and anyone else has tried (in a classical setting) it works and that's good enough for me.
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Pres Eden,
Faith in that your senses and memory are functioning properly is a given, it is not faith in the same way that : "Given that my senses and memory are functioning properly, I have faith that I will be granted 72 virgins in the afterlife" <- "double faith".
The bridge example has only one faith. So since that "sense and memory faith" is common to both, we can ignore it and focus on the important part.
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
I think that the original question about the difference between " I believe" and "I know" is still fine.
It's safer to use "I believe" if you don't want to be proven wrong.
But you have to be more careful and pedantic if you are going to use "I know" and don't want to be proven wrong.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
04 Aug 10 UTC
@LordVipor,

But, if you walk around saying things like "I believe a triangle has 180deg" people aren't going to take you seriously.

More importantly, if you're the P.E. signing off on a bridge design and you "believe" a bridge is safe, you're going to have a hard time keeping your job.
LordVipor (566 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
@ abge,
Yea, I agree completely, I meant to add something about if you use "I believe" it doesn't really lead to anything practical, you might as well just not say anything if youre going to start out with an unsolicited "I believe". Now if someone is asking you an opinion, that is something else.
Draugnar (0 DX)
04 Aug 10 UTC
So, clarify the statement to say "I know that in every instance I've witnessed or have knowledge of it's use, F=ma." :-)

And thanks for the backing on 2-dimensional geometry being the default when refering to a triangle, abgemacht.

LordVipor - the definition of sa triangle clearly makes it a two dimensional object because it is the intersection of three straight lines at three different points in space. the intersection of three straight lines at three different points in space always occurs on one plane. They must share a common plane to intersect at three points as any three points in space can be found on one plane. So by definition a triangle is *always* two dimensional just as a circle and a square are. A 3-d triangle becomes a pyramid or a cone or some distortion using arc segments.
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
04 Aug 10 UTC
@Draug

Everything you said is true in Euclidean space. A non-Euclidean triangle is still 2-D. But, as I've said, it's simply impractical to consider non-Euclidean space if not specifically mentioned.

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92 replies
acmac10 (120 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
mobile version
it would be cool if there was a mobile version lf webdiplomacy so i could enter my orders on my phone.
31 replies
Open
Petruchio (168 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
The war in Georgia... what has been happening?
Really? I remember Russia going into it, part or the country formally secede back to the Russian federation, then... nothing. I haven't heard it mention once in the past two years, in the news, or even with normal conversation. The largest country in the world is fighting one of the smallest in the world, what has happened? Is Georgia now under military occupation? Did the Russian leave? Is Georgia a sovereign nation even? how much of it is, and how much is assimilated by Russia?
5 replies
Open
abgemacht (1076 D(G))
04 Aug 10 UTC
King of Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/user/freddiew#p/c/627F181E0CB37E19/1/031Dshcnso4

This guy may be the best Youtuber I've ever seen. His CoD:MW is also really good; like a real movie.
3 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
In the world map...
A fleet in Ontario cannot move to Union, right?
0 replies
Open
Thucydides (864 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
How do you use tumblr?
Anyone want to teach a luddite something new?
2 replies
Open
Sheogorath (170 D)
05 Aug 10 UTC
Live game in 15 minutes
1 reply
Open
Napoleon of Oz (2709 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Replacement France needed - League D2 Game 3
France just missed the spring 1901 moves in Game 3 League D2. They remain in a sensible position and will not lose any builds in the first year.
Is anyone left on the replacement list - or can we just open this to anyone interested? Even better, if it is possible, would be if we could get a time extension for the autumn phase and a forced replacement so that France could at least make autumn moves.
Game link:
http://www.webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=33894
5 replies
Open
Gobbledydook (1389 D(B))
04 Aug 10 UTC
Non-anonymous gunboat games
Does the system stop players in the game from in-game messaging while such games are in play?
12 replies
Open
ottobot01 (100 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
fast Mediterranean game
a 5 min Mediterranean map gam is starting in 30 minutes from now at this address: http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35155. its under the name fast med.
2 replies
Open
rlumley (0 DX)
03 Jul 10 UTC
Country Elimination Thread
Rules: Each country starts with 10 D. Each post, you may add a point to one country and subtract a point from another country. When a country gets to 0 D, it is eliminated and ranked. You can't post if you were one of the last two people to post. (Meaning you can post every third post, maximum.)
2068 replies
Open
Onar (131 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Diplomacy theories
I've got some theories regarding different powers in this game, and I thought I'd throw them out there, see what people think. If you've got any of your own, feel free to do the same.
15 replies
Open
jcbryan97 (134 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Gunboat WTA highstakes
anyone up for it?
63 replies
Open
obiwanobiwan (248 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
John Lennon Died Today (the last of my Fab Four Serpae Tetra Fish, That Is)
George died a few weeks in, crushed by a Yellow Submarine (close, the pirate ship.)
Paul was hammered and cut to pieces like one of Maxwell's victims a couple months in.
Ringo starved and left for that great Octopus Garden in the Sky a month or so later.
And now, about 8 months after they set out, John was the last of the Serpae Tetra Beatles to die, if you can Imagine that. :/
5 replies
Open
Conservative Man (100 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Price and Value
I get the feeling on here that most of you feel that the price of something is it's value. That is not true! Value is different for different people. Because of my economic situation I may value a new car more or less than someone else. If I'm hungry, I'll value food more. (continued)
226 replies
Open
The_Master_Warrior (10 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Political Jokes
Okay, I've already had a Racial Jokes thread. Now it's time for political jokes. No blow is too low. Ex:

What do you call a draft-dodging, pot-smoking, communist pussy? A liberal!
59 replies
Open
Harangutan (100 D)
04 Aug 10 UTC
Join Meat Grinder!
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35100
10 pt buy-in,10 min/round
Anonymous players
join and play now!
0 replies
Open
Invictus (240 D)
01 Aug 10 UTC
The Triumphant Return of Invictus
I've been busy with my internship this summer, and now that it's the last week I think it's time to start up a game.

Anacostia or Bust, 70 D, points per center, 24 hour phases, 10 days to join.
6 replies
Open
PatDragon (103 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Live game
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35070

20 D, classic, starts in 30 mins
3 replies
Open
Barn3tt (41969 D)
02 Aug 10 UTC
Wouldn't mind discussing this one a bit. 36hr 150 pt gunboat
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=33593
18 replies
Open
MadMarx (36299 D(G))
01 Aug 10 UTC
Fantasy Football II - Yahoo Live NFL Draft
Preference given to people I've played diplomacy with at least twice as well as Minnesotans (where I was born) and Oregonians (where I live).
24 replies
Open
taylornottyler (100 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
I KNOW YOU WANT TO!!!!
JOIN THIS GAME gameID=34953

137 D 2 DAY PHASE ANON PPSC, SUPER SEXY
3 replies
Open
PeregrinTook (0 DX)
21 Jul 10 UTC
Fantasy Football
Hey I was wondering if any of you out there play and are interested in an 8 ppl league...post if you are and if there's enough commitment, I'll set up a league
74 replies
Open
tt612 (1089 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
This Game makes me sick
11 replies
Open
czechmate12 (0 DX)
01 Aug 10 UTC
Live Game Club!!!
I am here to advertise a live game club. Phases will be either 5 or 10 minutes and we will play classic and ancient mediterranean games. Please respond here or send me a message if you are interested. :)
19 replies
Open
yebellz (729 D(G))
03 Aug 10 UTC
Persia CD in AncMed
2 replies
Open
trip (696 D(B))
02 Aug 10 UTC
30pt live anon wta gunboat @ 9:30 est tonight
details inside

64 replies
Open
Bob Genghiskhan (1228 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
Again with the password protection
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=35009

Respond, and I'll PM you the password. Because a gunboat game where one player misses first year builds and CDs, and another player drops in and out, and a 3rd keeps a total of three units immobile in 1901 is a sucky game.
3 replies
Open
curtis (8870 D)
03 Aug 10 UTC
live gunboat wta
gameID=35007
need 2 more...
1 reply
Open
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