@Figle: absolutely, that is definitely the biggest issue with Gulf War 2. My point is that it's perceived "wrongness" and mishandling of it under leadership of Shrub has undermined opinion of the US amongst most Europeans.

bump

@Obiwanobiwan:An American soldier, very large, very well built (and Black - which may have been a factor) was arrested live on T.V. for raping a 14 year old South Korean girl. It had happened a week before I went there and was still playing on the news shows while I was there. I couldn't understand what was being said on the T.V., but the high emotional content was obvious.

I was told by patrons in a bar* that the anger was because the US had a deal in which U.S. servicemen avoiding criminal trials by the Korean authorities. They feared he would be spirited out of the country without facing trial or punishment. I don't know the outcome of all this, but Americans were not popular.

*-this was after assuring them I was a Brit. Four of them had followed me into the loo with obvious violent intent.
"Hey! You Yankie!".
"Not Yankie. Brit!".
"Brit? Brit? You British?".
"Yes! British!".
"Oh..." they looked at each other sheepishly. We settled it over beers, with one of them translating both ways while I drew a map of the UK(ish) on the bar in chalk. I drew in places they may have heard of - London, Manchester (Man U), Wales, Scotland, Loch Ness! That they'd heard of! They were fascinated by the Loch Ness Monster.

If I ever get far enough away from here I want to try telling people I'm on first-name terms with the Queen and see how that goes down.

@Leaf... I'm from Wisconsin (which is one of the northern states), and I get mistaken for Canadian. By other Wisconsinites... no one else really sounds Canadian. I suppose it doesn't help that I tend to reckon in metric. Where was that American in Thailand from? Because I might see how, to a foreigner, a Minnesotan or a Yooper (someone from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan) could sound Canadian.

@SpeakertoAliens:

First, I'm impressed ANYONE could draw a chalk version of that country... it seems so craggly with all those little islands... how "accurate" was it? ;)

And why is it when England goes and has a military in half the world its "the sun never sets on the British Empire!" and when we go in, right or wrong (and we've a mixture of both, Afghanistan being the former, Iraq the latter, Korea somewhere in between) its "Damn Yankee agressors!"

Europe, I think, as right as they are about Bush and Iraq, need t just drop it now; he's out, Obama's in, and while he's 50-50 love/hate-wise at home (obviously I'm the former, as I haven't called him "that evil socialist bastard who's the antichrist and wants to set up death panels and kill grandma!") he seems liked abroad... trying to pull out, and it's not like EUROPE never got involved in a Middle East mess (in fact, if I recall, the Jew-Arab mess at the moment is partly due to Britain's handling of it, promising both the land or so) so I guess I'm saying if Europe is allowed to play the military game abroad, why is America slapped round the head for it internationally, especially with Europe (and the FRENCH... lol, I just remembered, when the French wouldn't back us way back when everything with "French" in the name became "Freedom" for a while... you'd go to a restaurant and it'd be "I'll have the bacon burger with a side of Freedom fries, please." Haha... well, we don't have much original food, but I wonder if the French did the same with American food...)

And Americans ARE friendly towards Canadiens, though:

-Mostly, we like to rib them and make fun (all in good fun, of course)
-I think if asked what country they liked best besides the US, most Americans would say England, just because of the long roots and (mending now) friendship and all the English stuff we have in pop culture (Beatles, Harry Potter, James Bond, Shakespeare...)
-However... that's counting the Americans who would answer; a good chunk (and in certain parts of the country MOST) Americans would probably say "Screw other countries, who needs them- we're AMERICA!"

And somewhere, FDR and Chruchill look at each other and need a drink...

I grew up on American coasts and am coming up to the end of a 6-month stay in England... I love it here! It's got the sort of social environment that America has forgotten about entirely ... some obvious examples: roundabouts are frustrating if nobody else is there but they are more efficient on the whole... billboards are practically nonexistent, and the roads seem smaller but the average speed is like 90 mph ... gas is about $9/gallon with about half of the cost going to taxes ... and many bars/pubs don't have televisions!

so I feel like I spend a lot more time talking to people here than I did stateside, and get a lot more enjoyment out of little things because of the social coordination that's done here... other examples include plenty of parks and green space in London, and low buildings for a view of the sky despite a lack of formal building restrictions.

In the more extreme case, there's a CCTV camera every meter or so. Zero crime, but same can be said for privacy in public places, which you can definitely argue over the merits of.

And my understanding is that people understand we're past Bush - American politics make headlines everywhere. It's the remaining attitude/impotence of America to make progress on issues that the rest of the world is settled on, such as environmental issues in general, that they think is ridiculous.

"lol, I just remembered, when the French wouldn't back us way back when everything with "French" in the name became "Freedom" for a while... "

It was even funnier during the Reagan years when we bombed Libya. France wouldn't give us overfly rights, so our planes had to go from England around France to Libya.

Then we 'accidentally' bombed their embassy in Libya.

rudekker wrote:
> @Leaf... I'm from Wisconsin (which is one of the northern states), and I get mistaken
> for Canadian.

I'd just like to vouch that this is true. I know this guy personally, and he does sound Canadian, if you know what I'm talking "aboot."

@Obiwan2: I think you'll find that "the sun never sets" was British propaganda, I suspect that many of the places that we conquered had a less favourable opinion. Not unlike the way that US's self-view is not shared by other countries.

Europe has a pretty poor record in the Near & Middle-East, stretching back a couple of thousand years, and I hope that we have now learnt that intervention, however justified or well-meaning, is not a solution.

I'm English and I have been mistaken for Australian on a number of occasions, must be my willingness to throw a snag on the barbie. Then there was the girl in college who for a whole term thought I was South African, mind you I did do a (bad) Sout Efrican accent every time I met her. There was a reason for doing it but I cannot remeber what it was.

As an American, I try to stay well informed about other countries, which is why I own Our Dumb World, the world atlas from The Onion. That is why I know these things about your countries, for example:

France ("One Nation Above God")...
"Located directly in the center of the universe, around which everything else revolves, the nation of France is the sole beacon of life and civilization in an otherwise black and empty void."

Australia ("As Seen On Animal Planet")...
"Founded as a British prison colony in 1770, Australia today is home to roughly 20 million citizens—a remarkably high figure considering the scarcity of vaginal intercourse during those first few decades."

The United Kingdom ("Surging Ahead to the 19th Century")...
"The English people would like to dispute the stereotype that they are all overly polite, but refuse to bring up the subject for fear that they will cause a stir. Two hundred years ago, many would tip their hats while conquering, raping, and enslaving their foreign subjects."

And of course, the United States ("The Land of Opportunism")...
"The United States was founded in 1776 on the principles of life, liberty, and the reckless pursuit of happiness at any cost—even life and liberty.
"America is a land of equality for all, and special, better equality for some[...]A nation where any determined individual can climb to the top of the corporate ladder and kick it down so that nobody else can.
"In America, any millionaire can, through hard work and determination, exploit others to become a billionaire."

Hahahaha, that's pretty good, MKECharlie... The Onion, figures...

And my point being, diplomat61, if you all know what its like to have folks against you for being interventionalist (if that's not a word, it is now) then why act that way towards America? I mean, France has its collected noses up in the air like they're insulted at the mere idea of harming even the smallest fly, when they used to have Napoleon and colonies everywhere and their idea of a summer holiday was having a war with England.

;)

So they shouldn't act like they're disgusted by agression, in the way they are, when they themselves, and most all of Europe, and China, and Japan, and Russia, and...

@bb - 0 crime!? But I know what you mean, I can't comment on anywhere else, but if you're in the "right area's" you're perfectly safe.

"And why is it when England goes and has a military in half the world its "the sun never sets on the British Empire!" and when we go in, right or wrong (and we've a mixture of both, Afghanistan being the former, Iraq the latter, Korea somewhere in between) its
"Damn Yankee agressors!"" [sic]
Because we did it in the 18/19th Centuries, and then gave each part of the empire self-determination. Now, I know that is what the US will do, but it hasn't happened yet. Also, it was a loooooong time ago, during the industrial revolution, and whilst the British empire did some terrible things, it had that to help cover them.

French attacking England - na, they're idea of a summer holiday was to take England, they just weren't good enough ;)

@Figgles - Afghan is right, why because we are fighting for democracy?

This is the new Con-Lib Cabinet representing Britain.
Millionaires : 23,
White : 29,
Black : 0,
Asian :1,
Men: 26,
Women: 4,
LGBT: 0

Let's fight for democracy at home and not in some foreign land.

Sorry about going off topic, but I didn't want to start a new thread

During the18th & 19th centuries there was no "international community" who would collectively groan over hostile take overs. in fact there were far many more dictatorships with nationalistic interests than there are obviously today. England still pissed people off in the 20th century but after World War II they gave in to a number of independence movements that were occuring in their colonies. Their technological & economic influence on the regions were still there so the relationship continued to some degree.

@Maniac - This is democracy, this is what the people elected. I am quite happy for the government to be full of millionaires, as long as their jobs are not safe.
You wouldn't want to invest in a bank run by a man with a few thousand pounds, so why do you want to entrust a multibillion pound budget to someone in the same situation?

@t32s - exactly.
To continue your point, there *was* an international community, but they were European powers all seeking to outdo each another. How? By building empires!
To the earlier post, you wait - 100 years time it'll have been forgotten, or at least much less of an issue.

Tell me--what is the international perception of the left/right split in the USA?
We had some very sociable people visiting from Ireland for a year, and I can only imagine the impression the '08 election made on them :D

You don't have a left in the USA. You have a right and a centre right

As a Canadian I think that your left is more right of center. It's just the reasonable right party- the Republicans, IMO, are crazy.

@Octavius : Since the center right is at the left of the right it is a left. I mean it depends of your country. For instance, the right in France is at the left of the Left in USA. So from an american point of view, the French can choose between Left and far Left. From a French point of view the American can choose between Right and Right.

But, my dear Frog, as he was asking for the perceptions of we foriegners our points of view are exactly what he wanted.

Oh sorry I didn't read the previous post ^^

Oct +1

And, Octavious, you are assuming that an "American Left" encompasses the ideals of the party that claims to be Leftist, namely, the Democrats.

It is entirely possible for an American to incorporate other ideals and therefore have a Left composed of ideologies from the American and other perspectives, still titled the "American Left" as it pertains to decision-making and governing America.

An example being, to generalize, the American Theatre Community as a whole.

Generally, you'll find Americans who make their work and life's passion in theatre, so entrenched in European ideals, naturally (so many of the great playwrights coming from there, the Master Bard and Kyd and Ibsen and Beckett and Moliere and the like... though in defense of the American scene, we DID have at least three greats in Tennessee Williams, Arthur miller, and Thornton Wilder) that there IS some influence. Likewise with those that practice philosophy here (and I don't mean take a class in Ethics just to become a nurse, like nearly the rest of my class does, I mean REALLY study and debate and attempt to reason and listen to lectures and question and even teaching and writing those ideas you synthesize) are inevitably incluenced by the ideas of Kant, Locke, Mill, Nietzsche, Aristotle (who I'm reading currently, his "Politics), Hume (just finished reading him and his "Enquiry"), Plato, Deescartes (reading him after Aristotle) Camus, Satre, Russell, and plenty more...



You'll find the few Americans, Octavious, who don't spend all day long staring at the idiot box (not even that TV itself is bad, but TV TODAY IS) or texting all day or stuck in a dead end job...

Those few, maybe 2%, but still there, Americans who READ and go to plays and listen to music that ISN'T all about rape and beating women and blasting with no rhythym whatsoever...

They're out there... and they're very much different than your conception of Americans as being overly Right and overly agressive or conservative, or both.



For instance, me myself, the political ideologies I work off of (and I'd be curious to here those of the rest of you in relation to your country, see what constitutes YOUR idea of an "English" Left vs. a "French" Left vs. an "American" Left, and the Right, and so on) are based off of, mainly, the synthesized ideas of John Stuart Mill and Aristotle.

That is a tad contrary, but essentially I like the GENERAL idea of Mill's leanings (not even going so far into Utilitarianism, but the idea of freedom of action and situational as opposed to rigid, coinstitutional thinking, THAT I love, and also hsi insistance that all classes should have a right to education and from THAT, from the strengths of one after a fair and equal education, THEN differences emerge, hopefully for the better, but even so, all are equal before that.)

Aristotle's insistance on diversity-over-conformity, essentially dispelling Plato's notion that the more those in the State are one and alike, the more harmonious and the better, that notion, too, I like.

Taken together, generally, I look at every situation from a previous framework, in this case, law and logic and the Constitution, but if I believe there's a greter chance for gain for the nation (and a HUGELY greater gain, and a SIGNIFICANT gain) then I'll consider that the previous laws, perhaps, are wrong, must be changed, or even violated given the circumstance. An example- abolishing slavery. THAT would e an example of violating and changing the law of the land for a FAR greater good, treating human beings like... human beings. Now, invading a country for OIL (not that I am saying Bush did, I am inclined to believe while he had an agenda in invading Iraq oil was not a part of it, at least not topping the list) would NOT meat that requirement, as it sets a bad precendent, and the good yielded (the theoretical oil) is outweighted by the vast badness (ie, a war, many dead... basically Iraq as it's turned out.)

On the whole, I believe we should operate in the Mill/Aristotle compromise politically and internationally. That is, we should treat all nations as equal and listen to them (Mill) but not at all be afraid to be one of the LEADING voices (notice, fair Europeans, I said LEADING and not the SOLE voice or the DOMINANT voice; American/England/Russia/China/Japan are all immensely powerful either militarily or economically, and have loud voices, and therefore its fair they should ahve the greatest clout. Nations like Saudi Arabia, France, Germany, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Israel, North Korea- all, too, have great stengths and goods to bring to an international Diplomacy table, and so they, too, get the lion's share of the attention and the most clout in international politics. Nations like Chad and Laos, I'm afraid, don't have the same amount of power, so, says Aristotle, they must be somewhat subject to the whims of the bigger nations, asn a Laos will not be able to defeat a China; however, says Mill, that doesn't mean they shouldn't ahve SOME voice, and shouldn't have the opportunity to GROW and GAIN more clout. That's my personal balance- stength should be rewarded, but no one nation or two nations should EVER be the only voices that "matter." The top 10-15 nations in the world militarily and economically should, therefore, be rewarded with a greater share of goods and more voice in affairs, but the smaller, weaker nations should not be destroyed or accosted, and must both be given a voice, alebeit a weaker one, and the chance to grow so they might join that "Top 15 Powers Club.")

That doesn't sound too American Right to me or Right to me... it sounds Center in some parts, and Left in others; the one part it is Right is the Powerful-over-Weak area, but as I allow for the WEak to become the Powerful, I see no problem in rewarding countries who are more successful with more clout and influence.

And, in any case, I'm not saying "Fuck everyone, this is AMERICA, we won WWII all by ourselves, totally, no one else helped at all, and we have nukes, so shut up or we'll nuke you!"

Nah... You see I'm a just a simple chap who sits happiliy in the right wing of British politics and has never in his life seen voting for our left wing party as being a good idea. And yet when I have looked at your elections I find myself feeling that I could vote for either party (ignoring the frankly bizare arguments on gun control and abortion which are complete non issues over here). There are no political parties in the States that offend my anti-left bias, therefore to my eyes they are on the right.